If they took out the japanese honorifics...

#51Gmoney-Posted 1/27/2013 9:33:07 AM
Canadian here. Don't really like Anime.

Think this game NEEDS the honorifics.
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#52Ray Ledgend 46Posted 1/27/2013 9:43:21 AM
kratoscar2008 posted...
Ray Ledgend 46 posted...
but the word Senpai, for example, holds no value to me because I don't come from that culture.


well how they would explain then the cultural days and such witouth diminishing the japanese feel? This is not like subbed anime were people are nice enough to add an explanation with the sub.


That is a good point. For a lot of reasons, the game can't be totally removed from Japan, and some things like that are bound to come up. But at the same time, the concept of holidays is something we have here in the West. Even though I don't actually celebrate, say 'Respect for the Aged Day' or whatever holidays they have in the game, we have a similar concept here, so it isn't impossible to understand. I can still think of it as analogous to say Labor Day or some such. While it's certainly not perfect, it works for the purposes of the game.

Something like honorifics, by contrast are much more foreign to a Western audience.
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#53Minatokun13Posted 1/27/2013 10:05:43 AM
Ray Ledgend 46 posted...
So, in short I'm against honorifics because
1. I feel it hurts the game in terms of achieving wider appeal.
2. I don't think the visceral significance translates to very many in the west, even to people who intellectually understand them.
3. In my personal opinion, leaving such things in is unprofessional.




1) Which it wouldn't get anyway because anime.
2) If they intellectually understand them, then they can intellectually understand the significance. If not, they don't understand them.
3) Your personal opinion doesn't really count. It's not up to you to decide what's professional and what's not. And given that many other companies seem to be trying their best to actively screw over the fans, Atlus is probably one of the most professional companies out there. It's just a design choice, nothing to do with professionalism or not.

Besides, you admitted right after that that it solves the "what do we call him" problem, so...there you go.







Also, I forget who said it, but I laughed quite a bit when someone said "Nana doesn't roll off the tongue." Like, really? I could understand if we were talking about Ikutsuki or something, but NANA? lol.
#54CrimsonmistPosted 1/27/2013 10:27:53 AM
I wouldn't care either way.

But I am confused by this excuse of determining relationships when they are mostly inferred. I am honestly not seeing what excuses there are to keep them other than flavor text. You can't give me the excuse of needing to say SEEEENNNNPAI for the protagonist either when P3 the only other fully voiced one is just called LEADER when he needs to be called something other than a pronoun and it worked, and it isn't exactly needed for voice slips either since there is no lip syncing involved saved for the anime cutscenes and I don't really remember any use of honorifics offhand in them, and I refuse to believe that the methods involved in voice acting that don't require lip syncing on any level are so archaic that time or file size is a huge issue either when dialogue is progressed via button prompts or the equivalent of depending on settings.

So while I don't feel too strongly either way I can't exactly get the thought process behind those who want them to stay aside from immersion at best.
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#55TakayaNorikoPosted 1/27/2013 11:48:58 AM
I'd be more open to the honorifics if they hadn't changed them from the Japanese version. It's like they wanted to keep everything the same as the original version, but then forgot half way through and changed stuff around anyways.
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#56deathpapayaPosted 1/27/2013 12:18:38 PM
Keep the sempai and sensei stuff.

But ditch all the san/sama/kun/chan stuff, it sounds freaking horrendous in english, I cringe almost every time.
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#57perfectchaos83Posted 1/27/2013 12:54:12 PM
First, I think for a Western audience, the honorifics add little, and can even make the experience worse. For example, I sometimes play these story based games with my little sister, who has had pretty much no exposure to any of this Japanese, anime terminology. We like to enjoy the story together and whatever =P Anyway, when we started playing P4, she just thought the honorifics sounded silly. She couldn't take the writing as seriously, at least at first, because the honorifics were too jarring. In a lot of ways, I think people like her are more the face of the Western audience, rather than people who know the anime culture.

First off, Your sister is not the audience Atlus is looking for and Atlus would have never gotten a sale from her in anyway regardless of whether they had honorifics or not.

Some in this topic have argued that the honorifics get across character respect or some other significance, but I would argue this only applies to people who already have knowledge of what the honorifics mean. Like, going back to my little sis again, she got confused at first when people referred to people other than MC as "Senpai" 'cause she just assumed it was our nickname. The honorifics do unarguably hold some value to those who understand them, but a game like this can't interrupt the player every time an honorific comes up just to explain it, so for those who don't know anything about Japanese culture, it doesn't add anything of worth, it's just a cultural block.

More or less, see above. The audience Atlus cater to already know what the honorifics are by and large and it doesn't take much to look it up either.

Plus, I understand Persona caters pretty heavily to the anime crowd, but I feel that even to people who know what the honorifics mean, the significance is not often viscerally apparent. I mean, I know they confer respect intellectually, but the word Senpai, for example, holds no value to me because I don't come from that culture.

Based on this topic, I would disagree. It may not hold value to You, but it holds value in the game.

Plus, I feel like it's kind of a localizer's job to do the best they can to translate the original intent, while still operating within the confines of a single language =P It may not be easy, but a full localization is, at least in my opinion, a more professional, and again, viscerally satisfying product than one that leaves in such cultural roadblocks as honorifics just because there's no easy substitute.

You miss the difference between laziness and design choice. Now, if Persona took place in an American countryside, removing the honorifics makes sense, but since it takes place in Japan they should stay.

That is a good point. For a lot of reasons, the game can't be totally removed from Japan, and some things like that are bound to come up. But at the same time, the concept of holidays is something we have here in the West. Even though I don't actually celebrate, say 'Respect for the Aged Day' or whatever holidays they have in the game, we have a similar concept here, so it isn't impossible to understand. I can still think of it as analogous to say Labor Day or some such. While it's certainly not perfect, it works for the purposes of the game.

First of all, it takes place in Japan. Making this game not take place in Japan literally makes no sense considering the mythos of Izanagi and the like. Second, Americanization is a stupid concept, I don't want the characters to be eating a rice ball and have them call it a hamburger or jelly filled donuts. In this game You live the life as a Japanese High school student, not a student in a weird hybrid American/Japanese culture.
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#58perfectchaos83Posted 1/27/2013 12:54:13 PM
Also, I forget who said it, but I laughed quite a bit when someone said "Nana doesn't roll off the tongue." Like, really? I could understand if we were talking about Ikutsuki or something, but NANA? lol.

It doesn't roll off the tongue for me and in any event, I picture an old hag in a rocking chair for "Nana" rather than an adorable 7 year old girl.
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#59RasolisuPosted 1/27/2013 2:44:04 PM
mmike265 posted...
Weird in the beginning, but you will learn to used with the honorific. After that, it isn't so bad. Oh btw, did they took the honorific off for anime dub? I only watched one episode, and I couldn't hear any of the character talk with honorific.


Do remember that Vanilla P4 explained all the honorifics in the manual.
#60RasolisuPosted 1/27/2013 2:51:39 PM
perfectchaos83 posted...
Also, I forget who said it, but I laughed quite a bit when someone said "Nana doesn't roll off the tongue." Like, really? I could understand if we were talking about Ikutsuki or something, but NANA? lol.

It doesn't roll off the tongue for me and in any event, I picture an old hag in a rocking chair for "Nana" rather than an adorable 7 year old girl.


Well Nana means Seven in Japanese, and Nanako pretty much means Seven-girl so literal translation go! Make it way funky... Yukiko shail now be Snow or Snow-girl but now has swap voice actors with Writing (aka Kanji) and use fist attacks and summons a female Shiva twins....