The more I think about the Shadows...(spoilers)

#11StevenKornerPosted 8/13/2013 8:13:27 PM
terran3999999 posted...
Personae and Shadows are really two sides of the same coin, both are from the human subconsciousness(I think) and can help or hinder the self/human.

Is it? I've never really heard of them being referred to as two sides of the same coin in Jungian terms...
Lemme try explaining this, and I'll see how my understanding matches yours/others:
The Persona arises from the human subconsciousness (more accurately, the collective unconsciousness, which is related to the subconscious) because a person's persona is a reflection of an archetype, such as "mother" or "warrior" or "trickster." People will put on different Personas in order to fulfill the roles of archetypes when they see fit (as you stated in your post).

Meanwhile, the Shadow is more personal. Your shadow stems from internal repressed feelings and thoughts, and the persona is often used to hide those from the world, as well as prevent the shadows of other people from reaching your ego. The persona is literally a wall in this case, keeping the insides in and the outsides out. This is protective short-term, but damaging long-term, as the shadow, when left unchecked, will eventually lash out in an attempt to be noticed. (Thankfully, others are protected by your shadow by their personas.) By accepting and integrating the shadow into your persona, it gets the attention it desires (the same attention your positive traits receive), and you step closer to personal individuation (personal wholeness, more or less).

FaustXII posted...
Yesterday I played through Lizzy's arcade, and when you go against the final match, Shabrys, her title is "I am a Shadow, Ruin Incarnate."

Do you guys think this applies only to her character? Or is it in general about ALL Shadows?

I'd say it's meant to apply to all Shadows, but like all things Shadows say, it's exaggerated. "Ruin Incarnate" implies that it is the epitome of ruin: destruction, death, etc. And technically, that's what the shadow is, in the sense that what it does typically causes destruction on some level--in Jungian terms, it causes destruction of the persona and damage to the ego, and in SMT terms, it attacks living people and wreaks havoc. "Ruin Incarnate" is a little dramatic, though. A shadow isn't what's left of a destroyed ego, whether you're speaking in Jungian terms or SMT terms.
#12RasolisuPosted 8/13/2013 8:17:56 PM
StevenKorner posted...
No, not just your experience. The game does Jung justice very well. My only gripe is how it treats Personas and Shadows as two sides of the same coin, when the persona is meant to mask the shadow... though Naoto sort of lampshades this and justifies the difference.

I did the same thing you're doing not too long ago. Really, the fantasy elements are entirely symbolic of how everything really happens: you neglect your Shadow, it attacks and hurts you and others, and once you accept it, it stops lashing out, and you become a more complete person. This is exactly what happens in the game, and also exactly what happens to real people. I find it to be really cool.


One of the big things for Persona is their Arcana each person's Slink and persona are of that arcana, their Shadow is a reversed said arcana. Even Nanako / Nametame Justice and reversed Justice.
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The fastest way to ruin a series you like is to get to know the other people playing it.
#13StevenKornerPosted 8/14/2013 10:31:15 AM
Rasolisu posted...
One of the big things for Persona is their Arcana each person's Slink and persona are of that arcana, their Shadow is a reversed said arcana. Even Nanako / Nametame Justice and reversed Justice.

True, and that makes sense--if the Major Arcana are used to describe a person, they would ideally embody both the upright and reversed meanings of that particular card.

But that doesn't really mean that a Shadow and a Persona are two sides of the same coin. I suppose Jung's definition of a persona and shadow isn't really contradicted by the game--the persona does protect the ego from a shadow--but I feel like since they're separate entities (related, but separate) in real life, it would make sense for them to be that way in the game, too.

Especially since there are tons of people out there with personas who ignore their shadows. They didn't have to face themselves in order to gain a social face.
#14terran3999999Posted 8/14/2013 11:11:11 AM
Is it? I've never really heard of them being referred to as two sides of the same coin in Jungian terms...
I could be wrong or maybe I'm phrasing it wrong, sometimes I can't really put my thoughts into words well....sorry. The way they both behave and act so similar makes me think they might just be.

I agree with everything you said in your post though.


Do you guys think this applies only to her character? Or is it in general about ALL Shadows?
Ignoring the fancy title, its true. Shadows to put it simply is really a human's basic instinct and desires, if one has no control over it, that person's desire lashes out and can easily hurt the self and others.
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.