Does anyone else hate archers?

#61Sain_of_CaelinPosted 1/26/2013 2:17:37 PM
From: Rethalwolf | #059
Dancer. By your own points, they can't counterattack from 1 range (well, I've only played 7-10 but still), they can't use javelins, hand axes, tomes OR bows. Therefore, by your own logic, this is the worst class.
In fact, it's exactly on par with healers and knights you unequip to taunt ballistae and farm EXP.


Do you really not see why this is wrong? Dancers double any units turn, making them hugely effective.

Also I want to clarify why not being able to counter attack is bad:

1. Yes, sometimes it's good not to counter, not a lot, but sometimes.
2. Most of the time it's best to kill enemies to avoid being swarmed.
3. In FE you are almost always outnumbered. Due to the gameplay style you can only kill as many enemies as you have characters at any time on your turn. But countering enemies changes this, in fact most of your killing other enemies should be happening on their turn (3/4 maybe?). Archers almost never do this and that's bad.
4. In addition to the inability to kill enemies the majority of the time (because of number 3) the Archer class will also be under leveled which is also bad.
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#62WestbrickIIIPosted 1/26/2013 2:17:56 PM
Rethalwolf posted...
Dancer. By your own points, they can't counterattack from 1 range (well, I've only played 7-10 but still), they can't use javelins, hand axes, tomes OR bows. Therefore, by your own logic, this is the worst class.
In fact, it's exactly on par with healers and knights you unequip to taunt ballistae and farm EXP.


Please don't ever use the word "logic" again when you can't recognize the difference between a combat-utility unit and a staff- or dance-utility unit. Archers/snipers are, without exception, the worst classes in the game from a combat perspective, having use in only rare circumstances. Dancers and staff-wielders are considered borderline-OP.
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#63VoidtemplarPosted 1/26/2013 2:20:07 PM(edited)
Play FE12 Lunatic Reverse and you'll learn to appreciate bows. >_>

Not bad in FE6 HM as well. Probably better in efficient play because you don't level up strong mages, accuracy in general sucks, and such.

As I think was said, Bows are better in harder games when the odds are stacked against you. Accurate and avoiding counters >>>>
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#64WestbrickIIIPosted 1/26/2013 2:20:37 PM
Voidtemplar posted...
Play FE12 Lunatic Reverse and you'll learn to appreciate bows. >_>

Not bad in FE6 HM as well. Probably better in efficient play because you don't level up strong mages, accuracy in general sucks, and such.


Surprised this wasn't brought up earlier. Probably the one place where archers go from really bad to pretty good.
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#65BlueSophiaPosted 1/26/2013 2:20:41 PM
In the general senshowe, the Sniper class is designed to be well rounded for their role. Most of the Snipers you get will have adequate defenses to take the odd hit or two and come out ready. But if you paid attention, this is a tactics game, not motley crew free for all. The adequate defenses should be all they need because if you were stupid enough to let them get ganked, of course you would prefer having another horse [(`]{/){} with you. The fact that they can strike beyond the 2 range is in itself one of the class' biggest benefits. There was a reason why your team even has supports and it is because you are supposed to be keeping them close to each other and never sending a unit off alone. And this... is why we have... casual mode...

As for the rest of their stats, no matter the defenses, they are often never above their resistances. In the older FE games before stat maxing became a thing, Snipers could easily outdamage a mage in a firefight, have a higher chance to land a critical hit and double attack them.

Also, ranged weapons like the hand axe and javelin were not as accurate, overally weaker and had no damage bonus. Unless you had significantly higher stats, they were substitutes.
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#66WestbrickIIIPosted 1/26/2013 2:24:19 PM
BlueSophia posted...
Also, ranged weapons like the hand axe and javelin were not as accurate, overally weaker and had no damage bonus. Unless you had significantly higher stats, they were substitutes.


Bows are almost always comparable / weaker than hand axes / javelins, a problem compounded by archers generally having average strength. Hand axes / javelins also have the obvious and major benefit of being able to attack from one range, an advantage that completely offsets the marginally higher accuracy. After all, if you're attacking more than twice as often, a difference in ~15% hit is irrelevant.
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#67Emperor_mateusPosted 1/26/2013 2:26:42 PM(edited)
I have a soft spot for archers and usually try to use at least one. Are there better classes? Sure, but your not dragging yourself down if you use an archer so I don't have a problem with it.

Archers tend to be better in games with high difficulty since you need the chip damage there.

By the way did't hand axe's/javelins get an extreme nerf? I mean 1-2 range is fine, but 2/3 mt on them is pretty bad.
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#68illanicePosted 1/26/2013 2:27:56 PM
Archer is a class i find annoying when they're enemies (not that threatening, so just pestering annoyance) and when they're on my team (just stand there and take damage, can't do anything on enemy phase).

I suppose on extremely unfair mode where no one can hit a boss on a throne an archer is useful, but that kind of "difficulty" in itself is annoying.
#69Sain_of_CaelinPosted 1/26/2013 2:31:54 PM
From: BlueSophia | #065
In the general senshowe, the Sniper class is designed to be well rounded for their role. Most of the Snipers you get will have adequate defenses to take the odd hit or two and come out ready. But if you paid attention, this is a tactics game, not motley crew free for all. The adequate defenses should be all they need because if you were stupid enough to let them get ganked, of course you would prefer having another horse [(`]{/){} with you. The fact that they can strike beyond the 2 range is in itself one of the class' biggest benefits. There was a reason why your team even has supports and it is because you are supposed to be keeping them close to each other and never sending a unit off alone. And this... is why we have... casual mode...


And how to you respond to the argument that most experience and most kills come from the enemy turns, leaving mono bows less useful and weaker over the course of a playthrough?

As for the rest of their stats, no matter the defenses, they are often never above their resistances. In the older FE games before stat maxing became a thing, Snipers could easily outdamage a mage in a firefight, have a higher chance to land a critical hit and double attack them.


Stats are neither here nor there, that a character to character thing. But at a base level attacking Res is better than attacking Def. Also early FEs had a fire spell that was more accurate than an iron bow. It had 2 less might, but attacked res. Add this to the other mentioned advantages and archers don't have much purpose not already done by mages as good/better, plus the other mage options.

Also, ranged weapons like the hand axe and javelin were not as accurate, overally weaker and had no damage bonus. Unless you had significantly higher stats, they were substitutes.


Yes but the fact that these weapons have 1-2 range makes up for this fact easily, as I showed early. These classes also promote into classes with more weapon type range. Even as first tier classes 1 range>2 range weapons.
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#70heavylobsterguyPosted 1/26/2013 2:38:35 PM
I think the real question is why are you using Archers when Nomads/Bow Knights/Horsemen are better? They have horses and usually get swords to defend themselves when they promote.

Lester>Faval, Sue and Shin>Wolt and Dorothy, Rath>Rebecca and Wil, FE9 Astrid>FE9 Shinon and Rolf, Horseman Draug>Sniper Ryan.

Even in this game Bow Knights have better skills to learn from and are overall more useful in the main story. Neither of them are exactly good classes to stay as in post-game when Assassin outclass them.
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