Does anyone else hate archers?

#71tcaz2Posted 1/26/2013 3:46:05 PM(edited)
From: WestbrickIII | #053
Challenge: name a class, independent of particular unit performance, that is worse than archer/sniper. Have fun.


It's easier to name classes that aren't worse, because snipers are a top tier class.

They pretty consistently murder everything they attack, which is the only thing that matters for them.


EDIT: Also I dislike equipping 1-2 range weapons on most units because it makes it harder to manipulate the AI into attacking certain units, because enemies like to attack people that can't attack back and it's always far more beneficial to kill enemies on the player turn then on the enemy turn because of uncontrollable variables like "death by ownage", where someone effectively kills themself by being too awesome and letting too many enemies attack them.
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#72Sain_of_CaelinPosted 1/26/2013 3:44:15 PM
From: tcaz2 | #071
It's easier to name classes that aren't worse, because snipers are a top tier class.

They pretty consistently murder everything they attack, which is the only thing that matters for them.


Read a couple arguments before you spout stuff like this.
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#73tcaz2Posted 1/26/2013 3:47:52 PM
From: Sain_of_Caelin | #072
Read a couple arguments before you spout stuff like this.


I've read all of them and come to the same conclusion.

Except in low turn count BS that doesn't deserve to even be considered because it is by FAR the most unfun way to play the series, archers are every bit as good as every other class in the series.
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#74RethalwolfPosted 1/26/2013 3:48:42 PM
WestbrickIII posted...
Rethalwolf posted...
Dancer. By your own points, they can't counterattack from 1 range (well, I've only played 7-10 but still), they can't use javelins, hand axes, tomes OR bows. Therefore, by your own logic, this is the worst class.
In fact, it's exactly on par with healers and knights you unequip to taunt ballistae and farm EXP.


Please don't ever use the word "logic" again when you can't recognize the difference between a combat-utility unit and a staff- or dance-utility unit. Archers/snipers are, without exception, the worst classes in the game from a combat perspective, having use in only rare circumstances. Dancers and staff-wielders are considered borderline-OP.


I was simply providing a unit that, by your given standards (ahem, logic) would be bad. You never explicitly stated it had to be a combat unit, nor did you provide any points by which a non-combat unit would be compared. Therefore, according to you, dancers are bad.

I certainly disagree. I love having dancers on my side. But apparently to you they're worthless.

Also worthy of note, snipers in FPS games and the like are considered support units, for the most part. That's how snipers are SUPPOSED to be played. Even in this game, they're support units (that use combat to support their allies). Therefore it's not even unreasonable to compare them to other support units, despite what I said above.

Logic.
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#75BMSiriusPosted 1/26/2013 3:48:50 PM
This is a lot to read. I would like to hear what people have to say about AWAKENING Archers/Snipers. Has that been covered yet?
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#76heavylobsterguyPosted 1/26/2013 3:54:58 PM
BMSirius posted...
This is a lot to read. I would like to hear what people have to say about AWAKENING Archers/Snipers. Has that been covered yet?


The class itself isn't very good. It has one of the lowest speed caps and the skills they learn aren't very good. Virion would rather be a Sage or Wyvern Lord, and Noire is waaaaay better as a Sorcerer. In the main story Bow Knight will be infinitely more useful.

The only plus is longbows.
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#77Sain_of_CaelinPosted 1/26/2013 3:55:55 PM
From: tcaz2 | #073
Except in low turn count BS that doesn't deserve to even be considered because it is by FAR the most unfun way to play the series, archers are every bit as good as every other class in the series.


So you'd take a level 15 archer over a level 18 or so Fighter or Peg Knight?

From: BMSirius | #075
This is a lot to read. I would like to hear what people have to say about AWAKENING Archers/Snipers. Has that been covered yet?


No idea, the class system and apparent weakening of Javs and things seems to change things a bit.

From: Rethalwolf | #074
I was simply providing a unit that, by your given standards (ahem, logic) would be bad. You never explicitly stated it had to be a combat unit, nor did you provide any points by which a non-combat unit would be compared. Therefore, according to you, dancers are bad.


Just because they only line of logic needed to prove archers were bad doesn't explain why dancers are good doesn't mean that's his only thought process. Archers can't use staves either but that's just not relevant here so it's left unsaid.

Also worthy of note, snipers in FPS games and the like are considered support units, for the most part. That's how snipers are SUPPOSED to be played. Even in this game, they're support units (that use combat to support their allies). Therefore it's not even unreasonable to compare them to other support units, despite what I said above.


This is a long shot. FPS and sRPG are totally different genres. But if you want an FPS analogy you can understand:

Imagine the sniper can hit an enemy from up to 150 feet that all snipers bullets disappear if the enemy is closer than 50 feet and they have no other guns and no melee attack. But on the other hand some FPS classes you can choose have a sniper with a max range of 140 feet(controlling for long bows) and a shotgun for up close. The second is better.
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#78RethalwolfPosted 1/26/2013 3:59:37 PM
Well of course shotty snipes is better, that doesn't make sniper useless. It's also still good. That's the point here.
Besides, because sniper bullets don't actually disappear pre-50 ft, I'd rather have a sniper anyway since it's so much more useful for a variety of ranges, provided you have the SKL *ahemfejokes*. 1HSKFTW
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#79Sain_of_CaelinPosted 1/26/2013 4:06:12 PM
From: Rethalwolf | #078
Well of course shotty snipes is better, that doesn't make sniper useless. It's also still good. That's the point here.


That's all we're saying. Archers and snipers can be good, they have some good sides. But compared to other classes they are the worst. Not useless, just the least usable. I play with archers and snipers myself, but when people start acting like all classes are good and equal, that's just not true.
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#80gotohadesPosted 1/26/2013 4:07:07 PM
Nideouss posted...
Shinon. Nuff said.


This. The arguement shouldv'e ended after this post.
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