What happened to good level design in Fire Emblem?

#31illanicePosted 2/10/2013 11:54:01 PM
Thracia is good until late game when half your team is staff users and good prepromotes (what's the point in training the others) and strategy relies heavily on warp. Otherwise, I like the capture and fatigue system very much and think it's the most interesting idea in the series.

I enjoyed HHM designs up until the desert chapter. I'm trying Radiant Dawn now so idk how good that is yet.
#32FujibayashiSuzuPosted 2/10/2013 11:54:55 PM
MarthMoopa posted...
From: FujibayashiSuzu
What good is a strategy game that says:
"No, your way of playing doesn't work okay? You can't just use the GOOD units! You have to use ALL of them because you have too!"

There's nothing wrong with using the best things to win the game, instead of it forcing you to use a less optimal plan that "uses everything".


You do not have to use ALL of the characters in Thracia. You just need to use more than Othin and Asvel, because if they get tired you're left with untrained units. The point of fatigue is to rely less on powerful stats and think more about actual strategy. You will never be forced to use Ronin, that's for sure.

Resources are also a big part of Thracia. You are not handed an overabundance of powerful weapons and gold, you need to think carefully about what you use, or you might find yourself stuck with a bunch of half-used iron weapons, and you have to put effort into obtaining those powerful weapons and even iron weapons (because your lord-buddy in the next continent will not be handing you 40,000 gold when you drop by to visit to fund your entire game)


I don't see how "Using the really powerful units" isn't good strategy. If it works it works. I don't consider it good game design to penalize you for doing this. It's like playing, say... I dunno, Shogun 2 Total War, and the game saying "No, you aren't allowed to use archers because you've used them too much! Go use cavalry instead."

Also I don't think I've ever really used anything above Iron weapons, except a few select cases. mainly becaues I prefer saving money, and having longer lasting weapons, over weapons that last half as long, but cost like x5 as much money. I think Awakening, with Armsthrift, is the first time I started regularly using Silver and above weapons...
#33MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2013 11:55:03 PM
From: illanice
I'm trying Radiant Dawn now so idk how good that is yet.


Titania with hand axes solos
#34MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2013 11:57:14 PM
From: FujibayashiSuzu
I don't see how "Using the really powerful units" isn't good strategy


Because it entails nothing but moving them the farthest they possible can while equipped with 1~2 ranged weapons and completely obliterating the enemy with zero effort. That's not strategy, that's broken game design.

Shogun 2 Total War, and the game saying "No, you aren't allowed to use archers because you've used them too much! Go use cavalry instead."


Is a single archer capable of destroying an entire enemy army? No, he isn't.
#35FujibayashiSuzuPosted 2/10/2013 11:58:45 PM
MarthMoopa posted...
From: FujibayashiSuzu
I don't see how "Using the really powerful units" isn't good strategy


Because it entails nothing but moving them the farthest they possible can while equipped with 1~2 ranged weapons and completely obliterating the enemy with zero effort. That's not strategy, that's broken game design.

Shogun 2 Total War, and the game saying "No, you aren't allowed to use archers because you've used them too much! Go use cavalry instead."


Is a single archer capable of destroying an entire enemy army? No, he isn't.


That single archer isn't also basically a god amongst men. If I wanted too, I could make him that and he could. And actually, a horse archer could probably do that if they couldn't catch him and he could replenish his arrows...
#36WestbrickIIIPosted 2/11/2013 12:02:55 AM
First: fatigue has nothing to do with map design, so I have no idea why we're discussing it. FE5 has a number of silly design decisions (99 hit cap, missable staves, completely unpredictable recruitments / special weapons / Cyas appearances that demand trial and error, or else a guide) that bring down its brilliance.

Second: Marth continues to underestimate the map design in this game. It's good. Examples (assuming Lunatic):

Chapter 2 -> open field, incredibly strong and aggressive enemies on both sides
Chapter 3 -> pincer attack, two levels
Chapter 5 -> mountain climb; have to deal with reinforcements and a barrage of wyvern knights
Chapter 10 -> amazing atmosphere, catching thieves a secondary objective, unique "pillar" terrain
Chapter 19 -> open-field kill leader mission, but the map is surrounded with incredibly strong promoted units and reinforcements
Chapter 21 -> spawning long-range tome users force you to bolt for the exit
Chapter 22 -> intense fight between your best units and the twelve Dark Warlords
Endgame -> literally fighting on the back of a dragon, spawning superpower units

Those are just off the top of my head. It's certainly memorable. You really just need to play on Lunatic and avoid DLC / grinding / dark magic.
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#37DemiseEndPosted 2/11/2013 12:09:24 AM
FujibayashiSuzu posted...
Isn't Tharcia that incredibly hard FE that will completely ruin you unless you actually know how the game's mechanics work? Crazy thigns like stamina, weird map conditions, castles and something? And you basically MUST marry everyone off to get good children in later gens and stuff?

Sounds pretty horrible to me.


No

Thracia is that game that is by far the most enjoyable FE with good stage design overall, and amusing mechanic

But easilly breakable if you know your stuff since that game perfectly shows that IS did not bother to ballance stuff correctly, many weapon are broken, some character is a joke, while some other are completely broken(particularly Othin, and Asvel)

It also has terribly stupid AI thanks to the mechanic

And the late game is infamous for its MASSIVE Priest bias. There was a saying that there is only two different unit in thracia, those with high magic and can use staves and those that don't

And it has absurd ranking system that is designed around the player using EVERYTHING they have, and by everything I meant Warp skipping
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#38MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 12:12:30 AM
From: WestbrickIII
Chapter 2 -> open field, incredibly strong and aggressive enemies on both sides
Chapter 19 -> open-field kill leader mission
Chapter 22 -> intense fight between your best units and the twelve Dark Warlords
Endgame -> literally fighting on the back of a dragon, spawning superpower units


All boring open-field maps that provide no challenge whatsoever because all you do is meet the enemy head on. These are only examples that HELP my point of Awakening having Gaiden-style "charge" maps that require no thought to complete due to their utter lack of interesting or challenging structure.

Chapter 3 -> pincer attack, two levels


There is nothing interesting or challenging about the design here. It's just two rectangles connected by two small hallways on each side.

Chapter 21 -> spawning long-range tome users force you to bolt for the exit


You run for a few turns, with very little opposition in the way, and attack the boss that will charge you so you can get out of this boring chapter soon. It doesn't help that the chests contain absolutely nothing that you could possibly need by this point in the game.
#39MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 12:14:29 AM
From: DemiseEnd
And it has absurd ranking system that is designed around the player using EVERYTHING they have


How is this a bad thing?

Why should a game, especially a STRATEGY game, expect a player to use bare minimum resources? Why have all these powerful things if you can get away with not using them?
#40Okay_ComputerPosted 2/11/2013 12:16:15 AM
From: FujibayashiSuzu | #032
MarthMoopa posted...
From: FujibayashiSuzu
What good is a strategy game that says:
"No, your way of playing doesn't work okay? You can't just use the GOOD units! You have to use ALL of them because you have too!"

There's nothing wrong with using the best things to win the game, instead of it forcing you to use a less optimal plan that "uses everything".


You do not have to use ALL of the characters in Thracia. You just need to use more than Othin and Asvel, because if they get tired you're left with untrained units. The point of fatigue is to rely less on powerful stats and think more about actual strategy. You will never be forced to use Ronin, that's for sure.

Resources are also a big part of Thracia. You are not handed an overabundance of powerful weapons and gold, you need to think carefully about what you use, or you might find yourself stuck with a bunch of half-used iron weapons, and you have to put effort into obtaining those powerful weapons and even iron weapons (because your lord-buddy in the next continent will not be handing you 40,000 gold when you drop by to visit to fund your entire game)


I don't see how "Using the really powerful units" isn't good strategy. If it works it works. I don't consider it good game design to penalize you for doing this. It's like playing, say... I dunno, Shogun 2 Total War, and the game saying "No, you aren't allowed to use archers because you've used them too much! Go use cavalry instead."

Also I don't think I've ever really used anything above Iron weapons, except a few select cases. mainly becaues I prefer saving money, and having longer lasting weapons, over weapons that last half as long, but cost like x5 as much money. I think Awakening, with Armsthrift, is the first time I started regularly using Silver and above weapons...


Well, Shogun 2 did kind of say "YOU CAN NEVER USE CAVALRY" since the cheapest unit in the game is a hard counter to most forms of it.
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