What happened to good level design in Fire Emblem?

#61MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 10:49:19 AM
From: Sentinel07
Calling everything else trash is just stupid.


Telling the truth is not stupid.
#62arvilinoPosted 2/11/2013 11:02:15 AM(edited)
Patrick7286 posted...
The thing is that Thracia's level design is well above good. It's excellent. You can have an FE with worse level design than thracia and still be good. Honestly I feel like the games with the worst level design would have to be 2 and 4 which both came before FE5.


I'm not a fan of some of FE5's level design. Too many of the outside levels made your foot units really mediocre compared to your mounted ones due to re-move/canto, or resulted in some really tedious moving of units to escape the chapter after you've already defeated all the moving enemies(e.g. whoever goes to get the outside chest in I think chapter 5).

Similarly ones where they remove the players control of the situation(the chapter and 1 gaiden with the hidden spots that warp you), that's less challenge than it's just trapping your character somewhere where they either can't get out of unless you've got some spare rescue staffs at the penultimate map of the game or just somewhere unintended(in chapter 16B).
#63Sentinel07Posted 2/11/2013 10:50:59 AM
MarthMoopa posted...
From: Sentinel07
Calling everything else trash is just stupid.


Telling the truth is not stupid.


Enforcing your opinion on everyone else is. Complaining is pretty much the only thing you do around here. You just can't seem to just let everyone enjoy what they want to enjoy.
#64nimerjm37Posted 2/11/2013 11:08:20 AM
Sentinel07 posted...
MarthMoopa posted...
From: Sentinel07
Calling everything else trash is just stupid.


Telling the truth is not stupid.


Enforcing your opinion on everyone else is. Complaining is pretty much the only thing you do around here. You just can't seem to just let everyone enjoy what they want to enjoy.


For whatever reason, I felt the need to read through this entire topic. To me, it sounds like Moops is on a "I was here before it was cool" hipster rant against something people like, simply because it is something people like. Get over yourself, dood.

Next, Moops will be telling us how The Black Keyes, Florence + The Machine and The Arcade Fire were great bands until everyone else started listening to them.

(For the record, I don't think any of those bands are great, or even good. They are hipster music, and therefore a good example for my point's purposes.)

Q: How many obnoxious hipsters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: ... what, you don't know?
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Never, EVER order ANYTHING from ConsoleSource.com. EVER. You have been warned.
#65MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 11:15:05 AM
From: arvilino
Too many of the outside levels made your foot units really mediocre compared to your mounted ones due to re-move/canto


And your mounted units had to get off their mounts indoors, losing a small bit of their stats in addition to the horsies.

WOAH, IT'S LIKE THEY BALANCED THEM OUT

Couple that with the Fatigue system.... it's like the game was intelligently designed to make you think about your deployment, so you take units that are well suited for the battle at hand....

WOOOOOAAAHHHHH

From: Sentinel07
Enforcing your opinion on everyone else is.


These are not opinions. An opinion would be stating that Chapter 10 has "great atmosphere". That atmosphere is entirely irrelevant to what the level is actually like.

From: nimerjm37
To me, it sounds like Moops is on a "I was here before it was cool" hipster rant against something people like, simply because it is something people like. Get over yourself, dood.


Then you really didn't read the topic. This has nothing to do with "before people liked it" and everything to do with developers being lazy because they don't want to turn away the casual audience with levels that actually require thought to complete (because they somehow have trouble already with maps that require no thought to complete).

Next, Moops will be telling us how The Black Keyes, Florence + The Machine and The Arcade Fire were great bands until everyone else started listening to them.


This is entirely irrelevant (and those bands are garbage)
#66WinsagePosted 2/11/2013 11:22:29 AM
Good to see Marth hasn't changed. I was starting to get worried when I saw him posting here without making a serious effort to mix up facts and opinions.
#67Sentinel07Posted 2/11/2013 11:28:16 AM
Winsage posted...
Good to see Marth hasn't changed. I was starting to get worried when I saw him posting here without making a serious effort to mix up facts and opinions.


The only thing he's good at. As always, he thinks his opinions are the hardcore truth.
#68WestbrickIIIPosted 2/11/2013 11:33:57 AM
MarthMoopa posted...
No, it boils down to "it completely lacks any structure whatsoever", which contributes to utter lack of strategy required.


Horrible chapter. You move down a little bit, go to the right, and BAM you're at the boss. No structure, no challenge.


This is becoming empty conjecture. Let's compare Chapter 9 in Awakening with Chapter 5 in Thracia.

Chapter 9 (reductive): You move down a little bit, go to the right, and BAM you're at the boss.
Chapter 5 (reductive): You go in a circle, beat some mages, and BAM you're at the exit.

Chapter 9 (non-reductive): The map begins with an immediate tension- your units are hampered by desert terrain, but the immediate south is clogged up with meaty enemies. You can't turtle at the beginning, as there are several secondary objectives: saving Libra, and moving your team out of range of the wyvern reinforcements. You'll also need to recruit Tharja.

Chapter 5 (non-reductive): Couple of secondary objectives here. You need to position Evayle and Lachesis against the stairs and secure chests in the northwest and southeast corners of the map. There's a group of aggressive mages that charges your group, and Lachesis + earth sword is the best way to deal with the group short of wasting a pure water / Grafcalibur. This encourages hurrying along, clearing out the northeastern units, and preparing for the mages.

In short, both maps feature unique direction (in Thracia, a circular shape; in Awakening, a U-shape). Both maps feature several secondary objectives. Both maps feature aggressive enemies. Both maps feature a vulnerable recruitable who needs to be saved. The map design here is of comparable quality.
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Play Fire Emblem: Awakening.
#69MarthMoopa(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 11:44:32 AM
From: WestbrickIII
Both maps feature several secondary objectives. Both maps feature aggressive enemies. Both maps feature a vulnerable recruitable who needs to be saved. The map design here is of comparable quality.


They are not of comparable quality.

C9 features an L shape with lazy enemy placement and no structure in that L to challenge that player to think about how they move. The desert portion is irrelevant, it only affects you when moving out on your first turn. Recruiting either character entails 1) Letting Libra come to you and 2) Not equipping any 1~2 range weapons near Tharja so you don't kill her on your way to the boss, and then simply talking to her with Chrom. It's brainless design.

C5 features a circular shape with a lot of structure and interesting enemy placement that challenges the player to think about how they approach the enemy. Recruitment entails protecting a fragile character against a bunch of beefy enemies with but one unit, who might get swept away if you're not fast enough to kill the arena brawlers. It also features some of the best character interaction in the series, with lots of great dialogue (and a delightful hidden treat: a panicking Leidrick if you're able to capture Mareeta)
#70Sentinel07Posted 2/11/2013 11:50:11 AM
WestbrickIII posted...
MarthMoopa posted...
No, it boils down to "it completely lacks any structure whatsoever", which contributes to utter lack of strategy required.


Horrible chapter. You move down a little bit, go to the right, and BAM you're at the boss. No structure, no challenge.


This is becoming empty conjecture. Let's compare Chapter 9 in Awakening with Chapter 5 in Thracia.

Chapter 9 (reductive): You move down a little bit, go to the right, and BAM you're at the boss.
Chapter 5 (reductive): You go in a circle, beat some mages, and BAM you're at the exit.

Chapter 9 (non-reductive): The map begins with an immediate tension- your units are hampered by desert terrain, but the immediate south is clogged up with meaty enemies. You can't turtle at the beginning, as there are several secondary objectives: saving Libra, and moving your team out of range of the wyvern reinforcements. You'll also need to recruit Tharja.

Chapter 5 (non-reductive): Couple of secondary objectives here. You need to position Evayle and Lachesis against the stairs and secure chests in the northwest and southeast corners of the map. There's a group of aggressive mages that charges your group, and Lachesis + earth sword is the best way to deal with the group short of wasting a pure water / Grafcalibur. This encourages hurrying along, clearing out the northeastern units, and preparing for the mages.

In short, both maps feature unique direction (in Thracia, a circular shape; in Awakening, a U-shape). Both maps feature several secondary objectives. Both maps feature aggressive enemies. Both maps feature a vulnerable recruitable who needs to be saved. The map design here is of comparable quality.


There's no reasoning with him. He's so close-minded towards anything outside Tharacia.