Story battle: FE6 vs FE7 vs FE8

#31Segmented OdinPosted 3/6/2013 8:48:59 AM
marthsheretoo posted...
Skaldskaparmal posted...
They're all pretty terrible.

Also, I'm just going to leave this here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27311


Once again, that failure of a "critical review" is generally considered to be factually incorrect by anyone who actually payed attention to the plot of FE7.


How so? I've played FE7 multiple times, and those seem like legitimate complaints to me. Reading the topic now, so I may come across this grand debunking you guys are talking about.
#32marthsheretooPosted 3/6/2013 8:52:59 AM
Well, it's a really huge amount of text and I don't want to go through and counter things one by one (there are some legitimate things in there, so don't think I'm saying I could explain away EVERYTHING), but one example is that he makes a big deal out of Nergal's needing huge amounts of quintessence to summon dragons until he suddenly doesn't. Which is false, according to the game script, as Nils states that Nergal can summon dragons whenever he feels like it, but needs huge amounts of quintessence to CONTROL them. Which he obviously doesn't care about doing once he's dying, which is why he waits until then to call the dragons.

If you have specific sections you want me to look at, I'll do it, but I really have better things to do with my time than grapple with the entire thing.
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#33WestbrickIIIPosted 3/6/2013 9:00:23 AM
Segmented Odin posted...
marthsheretoo posted...
Skaldskaparmal posted...
They're all pretty terrible.

Also, I'm just going to leave this here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27311


Once again, that failure of a "critical review" is generally considered to be factually incorrect by anyone who actually payed attention to the plot of FE7.


How so? I've played FE7 multiple times, and those seem like legitimate complaints to me. Reading the topic now, so I may come across this grand debunking you guys are talking about.


By all means, provide some specific examples -- the piece is too monstrous and too inconsistent to tackle all at once. The main objection is that there are "plot holes," which there aren't.
#34Segmented OdinPosted 3/6/2013 9:24:35 AM(edited)
marthsheretoo posted...
Well, it's a really huge amount of text and I don't want to go through and counter things one by one (there are some legitimate things in there, so don't think I'm saying I could explain away EVERYTHING), but one example is that he makes a big deal out of Nergal's needing huge amounts of quintessence to summon dragons until he suddenly doesn't. Which is false, according to the game script, as Nils states that Nergal can summon dragons whenever he feels like it, but needs huge amounts of quintessence to CONTROL them. Which he obviously doesn't care about doing once he's dying, which is why he waits until then to call the dragons.

If you have specific sections you want me to look at, I'll do it, but I really have better things to do with my time than grapple with the entire thing.


Makes sense. I'm not trying to ask for a comprehensive thing, was just honestly curious since Westbrick implied the entire thing was false. FE7 was a great game, sure, but I think it's on a bit too high of a throne. Nergal is a pretty awesome villain, and the characterization in the supports is amazing, but the plot does lack some decent common sense and there are some legitimate concerns in that guys post.

EDIT: Damnit Westbrick, now I gotta edit my post or it looks like I'm ignoring you. This is gonna take a bit, let me skim through it again..

WestbrickIII posted...
By all means, provide some specific examples -- the piece is too monstrous and too inconsistent to tackle all at once. The main objection is that there are "plot holes," which there aren't.


The portion about the Ganelon bandits and Chapter 6 in general are complaints, but the rest of Lyn's story is fine (He takes offense at the most random things). The initial plot to kill Hector was something that didn't make sense to me either, nor was Legault's build up as someone amazing who ended up not knowing...anything really. Why was King Elbert left alive? I never understood that. The points on Ephidel's incompetence and Kishuna's lack of plot relevance or story, and finally the Black Fang in general having hordes of people to send after you (In an Assassin's guild??).
#35xKYSxPosted 3/6/2013 9:01:20 AM
FE7 > FE8 > FE6
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360 GT & PSN = xKYSx.
#36MKaykitkatsPosted 3/6/2013 9:38:13 AM
FE7 for me, a very well written, well thought out plot with my favorite aspect being the subtle twist only unlocked after quite a few of the requirements.
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#37WestbrickIIIPosted 3/7/2013 12:15:37 AM
Segmented Odin posted...
The initial plot to kill Hector was something that didn't make sense to me either,


The aim of the Black Fang is to cause strife throughout Elibe. Assassinating the brother of a young and ambitious marquess not only serves this purpose, as word will eventually reach Uther, but it also makes Eliwood's search expedition weaker.

nor was Legault's build up as someone amazing who ended up not knowing...anything really.


Legault:
You're quite plucky. I like you! However, I know almost nothing of the current Black Fang. If you still want my aid...

He was never built up as anything "amazing."

Why was King Elbert left alive?


The Ritual.

The points on Ephidel's incompetence and Kishuna's lack of plot relevance or story, and finally the Black Fang in general having hordes of people to send after you (In an Assassin's guild??).


Kishuna's enigmatic nature is not a story problem, much less a plot hole. Ephidel displays perhaps one instance of incompetence -- when he fails to kill Lord Helman. Otherwise, he's very effective at manipulating Lycian powers. Much of the Black Fang is morphs, and complaining about an assassins' guild being a little big is beyond petty.
#38Wild_MantinePosted 3/7/2013 12:21:58 AM
Wandering__Hero posted...
lucky_sharm19 posted...
The Black Fang was a very interesting group in general and had a lot to do with the central plot, so I'm going with FE 7.


Freak_Guy posted...
FE 7 > FE 8 > FE 6 for me.


This


Yup, I'm right here as well. FE 6 managed to get some gut punches in early on, "What Hector, how you dying you now? YOU ARE A GOD!" (I played FE 6 after 7).

But then it really got boring after that.
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#39MalcolmMasherPosted 3/7/2013 1:00:52 AM
How so? I've played FE7 multiple times, and those seem like legitimate complaints to me.

Let me point out what is, in my opinion, the biggest issue with the complaints. This means skipping to endgame. WARNING: MAJOR FE7 SPOILERS behind the tags in the remainder of this post.

Quote from the post by General Banzai: Earlier I explained to you how Nergal needed two things to summon dragons. He needed Ninian or Nils to open the gate and then a large amount of quintessence to call the dragons. Nergal at this point in time has neither. When he took Ninian after Chapter 29, he later explains that she proved useless at opening the gate. Then Eliwood kills her. So how did Nergal open the gate? How did it happen? Ninian didn't open it. Nils didn't open it. Nergal is incapable of opening it by himself. So… why?

These two issues are explicitly addressed in-game, in a cutscene after Battle Preparations.

Limstella: The children's dragon stone. What will you do with it?
Nergal: I will infuse it with quintessence.
[...]
Nergal: The dragon girl... Ninian's essence. Beautiful... Absolutely beautiful...... With this, I will be able to call dragons whenever I please.
[...]
To summon the numbers I need, I must have more essence. One must be fully prepared when dealing with dragons. If they wrested free from my control and killed me, all would be for naught.


In conclusion, then, Nergal can open the Dragon's Gate without Ninian because he has not only the physical manifestation of her powers, but also her soul, that being kind of his schtick. He doesn't open it and calls dragons before the heroes arrive because he doesn't have enough quintessence to do so safely, which is obviously not a concern once he's dying. So it appears that General Banzai's biggest plothole is resolved by reading the dialogue.

I'm sure there are legitimate objections as well, mind you; I certainly don't intend to claim that FE7's plot is flawless. Why, find a thing that is beyond reproach, and I'm certain the universe will quickly supply a better critic. But if you're going to criticize the plot of a game, I think it's reasonable to expect you to begin by paying it a modicum of attention.
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#40bararad13Posted 3/7/2013 6:27:53 AM
I like fe6 most due to it's large emphasis on politics(alliances betrayals etc) and villian which in my opinion is the most flashed out of all fe villians so far..