Question about Grima (Spoilers)

#31Czar_YoshiPosted 4/27/2013 1:01:25 AM
EchoPhoenix posted...
Well, they were apparently in the middle of battle when they left, if all those Risen with Lucina's arrival are any indication, so I wouldn't rule out Lissa dying moments before then. The way Lucina's arrival cutscene goes, I wouldn't be surprised if the opening trailer actually is accurate to how Lucina went back in time, and if it is accurate, then that would mean that the kids weren't all exactly next to each other when they left or anything.


Moreover, it probably happened a matter of seconds after the Dire Future II cutscene, which was likely when she was killed. There was a fight in the castle, Grima appeared, smashed stuff, and targeted Lucina first, possibly because she looked like Marth. Lissa could have easily been killed in the wreckage/while Grima was monologuing. The only thing that doesn't make sense is how, if Lucina was running from Grima, he/she would have arrived a day earlier in the main timeline than she did. Then again, everyone may have arrived at slightly different times and places...
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#32SazukeEXPosted 4/27/2013 1:08:08 AM(edited)
It's because Grima doesn't exist in that future anymore as he literally left.

Outrealms has a gate connected to it in the past, we have no idea if that gate is connected in the Future. It may very well have opened up due to the Time Travel stuff causing a rift or something.

Lucina had a mask on when she arrive though, she didn't have it in the other cutscenes so her jump had to have happened some time after her other cutscenes about the future.

I'm betting that Grima sent a force when he figured something was up and than sent the Risen through the jump gate during the fighting, the kids all than jumped through as Grima had to revert to MU form to case after Lucina.

As for Lissa's condition. Well, she isn't fighting anymore so she could have been injured, maybe even when her husband died.
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#33SazukeEXPosted 4/27/2013 1:14:11 AM
Aphoph posted...
Grima!Robin is to Robin as Neo-Exdeath is to Exdeath.

Really. It clicks.


Grima!Robin is more Grima though than Robin... Poor Robin in the future never wanted that but no human can resist a Dark Dragon God "and" the Fire Emblem being used to force a merging. By merging it's really Grima just taking over Robin as he/she is his vessel. Grima though at least gets their memories so it may explain why Grima took so long to start doing any real damage as the Robin stuff wouldn't want to hurt their friends and family.
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Hector x Farina - OTP of FE.
#34AphophPosted 4/27/2013 1:18:51 AM
It still fits.

Exdeath went from "MWAHAHAHA I'LL USE VOID TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!" to "ALL THERE IS SHALL BE TURNED TO NOTHING!" after being consumed by the Void.
#35Czar_YoshiPosted 4/27/2013 1:49:02 AM
SazukeEX posted...
Lucina had a mask on when she arrive though, she didn't have it in the other cutscenes so her jump had to have happened some time after her other cutscenes about the future.


Both of the Dire Future cutscenes are told from her point of view and after she began calling herself Marth. If you take them as a visual representation of her tale (were the game real, there would have just been words and no cutscenes/flashbacks), there was no reason for her to mention the mask. As I see it, the cutscenes were more representative of Chrom's thoughts as he heard her tale, and the Lucina he knew didn't have a mask.

That's probably overthinking things, but it's the way I see it.

SazukeEX posted...
Grima!Robin is more Grima though than Robin... Poor Robin in the future never wanted that but no human can resist a Dark Dragon God "and" the Fire Emblem being used to force a merging. By merging it's really Grima just taking over Robin as he/she is his vessel. Grima though at least gets their memories so it may explain why Grima took so long to start doing any real damage as the Robin stuff wouldn't want to hurt their friends and family.


I'm of the opinion that Future Robin was at least somewhat willing to become Grima, if not to the point where he could do it of his own accord. His talk about destiny and bonds and stuff prior to cht.14 makes me think the Robins weren't the same upon entering Dragon's Table. Personal strength and Basilio's antics aside, some potentially major differences I notice:

-Robin hadn't just lost his memory when Chrom, Frederick and Lissa found him, and thus wasn't as helpless.

-Chrom was hurt in Ylisstol because Lucina wasn't there to save him. Based on what she says later, this may have weakened him in the long run.

-Emm was assassinated. This, in turn, caused the Shepherds not to attempt the rescue mission to Plegia, which Flavia made a big show of being the first time Robin is trusted with something extremely important.

-Adding on to the above, this would have caused the scene in which Chrom and Robin swore to be two halves of the same whole to never have happened.

-Not as significant, but this also means you would never have recruited Panne (because Emm convinced her to join your cause), Gaius (because Chrom was out of commission and couldn't speak to him), Nowi, Gregor, Tharja, or Libra... Hold on, I just realized something. All of the girls listed here can't marry Chrom, whereas most of the girls you would get anyway can marry him. My respect for IS's attention to detail just went through the roof, and I'm no longer mad at Chrom for having limited female supports.

-Would never have killed Validar or met future Robin. In short, would have had fewer reasons to mistrust Plegia.

-It's hard to say what would have happened in Valm, but no Say'ri or Yen'fay would change things a lot. Basilio died, and that's all I know.

-Aversa spilled the beans in cht.13 that Plegia was planning to invade Ylisse to steal the Emblem, but was interrupted by your arrival to ask for ships. Had, for whatever reason, Chrom not gone to Plegia to ask for aid (he nearly didn't), they would have stolen the Emblem while Chrom fought Valm, setting the scene perfectly for a backstabbing upon return.


Tl;dr a lack of time travel could have caused Chrom and Robin to have significantly weaker bonds, and it's not entirely implausible that Robin was seduced by Grima's power and turned on his friend, regardless of what Validar did.
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#36Perfect ZPosted 4/27/2013 4:35:55 AM

Which brings me back to how I don't get why Lucina's future would apparently be saved just because Grima left it. The Outrealms are whole different realms stated to have really wonky flows of time. So if Grima can let the Risen move about in the Outrealms, I would think that any Risen in Lucina's future would still exist and continue to be wreaking havoc as well.


Risen aren't created only by Grima though, just look at the deadlords which have been retconned into being super risen, and were created before Grima was around. I think there's also a support convo where Henry creates a Risen. There are also likely more Grimas in random parallel worlds, like the ruined future.

However, the Riseb should disappear from Lucina's future just like how they disappeared from the present after future Grima is killed in the present.
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#37EnfusionistPosted 4/27/2013 4:43:21 AM
Perfect Z posted...

Which brings me back to how I don't get why Lucina's future would apparently be saved just because Grima left it. The Outrealms are whole different realms stated to have really wonky flows of time. So if Grima can let the Risen move about in the Outrealms, I would think that any Risen in Lucina's future would still exist and continue to be wreaking havoc as well.


Risen aren't created only by Grima though, just look at the deadlords which have been retconned into being super risen, and were created before Grima was around. I think there's also a support convo where Henry creates a Risen. There are also likely more Grimas in random parallel worlds, like the ruined future.

However, the Riseb should disappear from Lucina's future just like how they disappeared from the present after future Grima is killed in the present.


Perhaps the Risen still existed because their Grima was still alive, just in another timeline. If this is true, then the defeat of both Grimas in our main timeline would mean the end of the Risen from perhaps both timelines.

But the whole "alternate timeline" thing just makes everything uncertain. How many timelines are there - Infinite? Then are there infinite Grimas still destroying infinite other timelines and can all essentially timeline-jump whenever they get the chance?
#38SummonearthPosted 4/27/2013 6:01:00 AM
SazukeEX posted...
EchoPhoenix posted...
SazukeEX posted...
Yes.

The Risen cannot exist without Grima's influence.

So by jumping to the past they saved the Future anyway as Grima left and we know humans still exist and that Lissa is alive.


Eh, if Grima's influence allows Risen to still function even when they cross dimensions through the Outrealms (EXPonential Growth), then I don't see why he can't influence them across vast reaches of time either.

And Lissa actually might not be alive in the future, as an event tile chat between Lissa and Owain implies that he has a memento of her from when she was killed. Either Lucina wasn't aware of that, or Owain left later than her, and Lissa died between that time. If Lissa or any of the other first-generation people were alive, I'd assume that they would've traveled back as well, like Yen'fay.


His power doesn't work like that. The Grima in Future DLC is NOT the Grima that follows Lucina to the past.

Also, remember that when Grima arrived to the past his power was severely weakened. It's why he wanted to merge with past MU quickly to restore their power, Grima just overestimated past MU's strength of heart to take the merging of three minds into one.

Yen'fay also didn't chose to jump, he didn't even known how it happened. It also doesn't make sense to send everyone as someone was to stay behind and Lissa was the Exalt. The people needed her.

Lissa is alive as Lucina says that Lissa is still alive when you're recruiting Owain. We know that the children all jumped at the same time so it's between Lucina's word vs Owain. Lucina though is more competent so I would trust her word over his any day.


I think Lucina only said Lissa is alive to Lissa just to not frighten Lissa.
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#39EndgamePosted 4/27/2013 6:12:41 AM
So by jumping to the past they saved the Future anyway as Grima left and we know humans still exist and that Lissa is alive.

what?! how are they safe if Lissa is still around and no one left to oppose her?!

nothing can stop her from unleashing the horrors of the dress upon the world! NO ONE!

Why does Grima care if Lucina and company will go to another alternate timeline and stop an alternate Grima? Couldn't he just become content with dominating his current timeline?

"Why rule one world when I could rule two?" -Megatron
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#40EvenSpoonierPosted 4/27/2013 6:19:50 AM
SazukeEX posted...
No, MU didn't fake it.

However he knew it was coming so he weakened his MAGIC before Validar took over.


This. MU found a way to weaken the control, but it was still real control. In this timeline, the control was weak enough that MU could resist it the tiniest bit, and he saved that resistance for a time when it truly mattered most.
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