Oujay is STILL the greatest Hero of Fire Emblem.

#51CataclysmicalPosted 1/13/2014 11:01:38 PM
For fun, I'll do the same comparisons between Lilina and Lugh, with the same levels.

Lugh Lvl 10
20 HP
7 MAG
9 SKL
10 SPD
4 DEF
7 RES
8 LUK

Lilina
20 HP
11 MAG
6 SKL
7 SPD
2 DEF
10 RES
8 LUK

Lugh is beating her pretty hard here. 3 speed is quite signifcant in hard mode, not to mention the fact that Lugh has a 50% speed growth compared to Lilina's 35%. Lilina actually has trouble doubling enemies in hard mode, and she can pretty easily get speed screwed, so despite her 4 magic lead, Lugh will double things more consistently and thus deal more damage in general. This is not to mention that Lugh comes way way way earlier than Lilina does, but because I want to show you just how crappy Lilina is compared to Lugh, I'm comparing them at the same levels.

Lugh 20/1
29 HP
15 MAG
16 SKL
16 SPD
7 DEF
12 RES
11 LUK

Lilina
27 HP
21 MAG
11 SKL
13 SPD
4 DEF
15 RES
13 LUK

Things still aren't looking good for Lilina. While she has a 6 magic lead, she's losing out in 4 speed, which is really quite significant. This doesn't even begin to mention that in general, a lot of enemies have lower resistance, so Lilina's magic is completely overkill and she's still probably doing less damage overall compared to Lugh because Lugh is doubling plenty of things that she isn't. Lugh also has a 5 skill lead, although I don't really think that matters all that much; Lilina still probably has enough skill to hit things consistently, but I don't know, because I don't use crappy units.

Lugh 20/20
39 HP
23 MAG
25 SKL
24 SPD
10 DEF
18 RES
18 LUK

Lilina
36 HP
30 MAG
15 SKL
20 SPD
6 DEF
22 RES
23 LUK

So, sure, Lilina has 7 magic up on Lugh. But once again, she's down 4 speed. Further more, she's down 4 defense, and 10 skill. Lugh is winning pretty hard in durability here; 4 defense is 8 less damage in general, and Lugh has slightly higher avoid. The resistance doesn't matter all that much, and finally, Lugh is up 3 hp. They're pretty comparable; there's still things Lilina won't double that Lugh will double, and thus, deal more damage, and he's also gonna crit a lot more than she will. Once again, I'd like to mention that Lugh will be leading Lilina in levels for the entire game, and Lilina requires an extreme amount of babying to even get going, especially in hard mode.

Looking at supports, Lugh supports Miledy (who really loves his Fire affinity but hates the fact that he's not mounted), Ray (who doesn't have all too many options besides Lugh), Ellen (who is fairly mediocre and would rather have a defensive support), Chad (lol), and Hugh (who is better than Lilina too). His supports aren't especially great.

Lilina has Roy, Bors, Barth, Oujay, Gonzales, Marcus, Wendy, Garret, Astohl, and Cecilia. Out of all these units, we'll probably end up using Roy, Gonzales, Astohl, and Marcus. Roy has a lot of people who like his Fire affinity, such as the cavaliers. Gonzales would like her support. Astohl is busy doing thief things. Marcus isn't even used by the time you get Lilina. I'd say there's no clear winner here; they both have crappy supports that are filled with class overlaps or crappy characters.

I rest my case.
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#52CataclysmicalPosted 1/13/2014 11:09:53 PM
Oujay is the best candidate for Hero. No stat comparisons will deter me. I use all four and Oujay is simply better. Rutger is better than Fir, I agree.

Stat comparisons are one of the few things we can actually argue with to prove how a unit is better, and is one of the more important ones. If a unit's stats are better, I can't see why you wouldn't say that the other unit is better, except in cases such as availability (in which Dieck also hands Oujay's ass to him in) and niche jobs (which Dieck also does as he can use the Armorslayer very well). People are calling you a troll because you're s***ting on the community's way to compare characters and instead ignoring factual evidence. It's fine that you like Oujay, and I'm not denouncing you for that; everyone has their own preferences in regards to which units they want to use. What's not fine is that you're ignoring facts and saying "he's better because I think he is."

He came in late behind a wall..with enemies. Okay? He killed them with Wendy's help. Barth did nothing. My team was already there to support in case things got rough. You've got to get the wheels going early. I feel you guys don't take risks. On that one island fog chapter with all pirates, Oujay went from 6 to 12 by killing the nonstop spawning ocean pirates and easily overshadowed Dieck, making up for his late arrival and THEN killed the Berserker boss.

I do take risks, and I've done low turn count runs of every single Fire Emblem game except 1, 2, and the DS ones. I counter your point with that if you fed Dieck that experience, he'd be doing a better job than Oujay would on average, which I proved with the stats comparison. The wall point is a bit misguided, as generally, if you're going for low turn counts, you can easily be past that wall by then, but even stopping to break the wall is a waste of time because all those units won't help you do a damn thing generally.

Also, GOOD players don't use Marcus in general I feel. But there is no being "good" at Fire Emblem so I'll say strategically advanced. He's awful and a waste of space EXP hog. Sure, he can whittle down bosses easily but I've done greatly without him so far. Zealot is the same. If anything, Percival deserves the usage but he's somewhat a waste too albeit a better waste.

Here is another point that is completely wrong. Marcus is totally invaluable in getting lower turn counts, which is by far the most "advanced" way to play Fire Emblem. He has his niche in the game in that he's a strong unit that allows you to blitz through the maps very quickly and he can also carry Roy to the throne faster than any other unit until you get your first pegasus knight. Sure, using him consistently is bad (except in FE7, but that's because you can solo the game with him), but he will always have his niche; even later, he's still useful for ferrying Roy around and freeing up some of your other units to do other things, although there's not many situations where that's especially useful.
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"bro cutting yourself isn't a knife fight its psychopathic" -Delibirdation
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#53masterman97(Topic Creator)Posted 1/13/2014 11:10:36 PM
I agree with that. Lilina is definitely heading down that road where she's very slow. Lugh is destroying her in every category except Mag and Res. I'm probably switching her out with Ray anyway. Gotta make room for Shin too.

Ugh. Tough decisions.

Thany got killed so that frees a slot. Weak ass woman.
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#54KitsuKitsuPosted 1/13/2014 11:48:49 PM
masterman97 posted...
If anything, Percival deserves the usage but he's somewhat a waste too albeit a better waste.


You've just shattered all credibility you've had.

Parcival is God incarnate on hard mode.
#55CataclysmicalPosted 1/14/2014 12:02:26 AM
Parcival is God incarnate on hard mode.

Yes he is.

Bases:
51 HP
20 STR
16 SKL
20 SPD
15 LUK
15 DEF
13 RES

Not to mention on average, he caps speed, has 24 strength, 18 def and 15 res. And he comes with A in lances and swords, and C in axes.

What more could you want in a unit?
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"bro cutting yourself isn't a knife fight its psychopathic" -Delibirdation
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#56masterman97(Topic Creator)Posted 1/14/2014 6:24:08 PM
No, I'm called a troll because I actually have a different opinion that I fiercely believe in. I get persecuted for believing in something other than the norm even though the numbers say I'm right. By no means am I trying to be an ***hole, but when it comes to this, EVERY time I have played, Oujay is outright BETTER than Dieck. Easily making up for his time not being available on the pirate fog stage. I will not lie, Dieck had been getting me through most of the stages by weakening the tough bosses and he's STILL good, which is why I use them both; but Oujay simply had the edge on him when he got up to speed. Both are incredible. Like you said, Dieck and the Armorslayer was basically a no brainer earlier on. Too good, very safe.

What does a lower turn count award? I purposefully take a while on that stage so I can get the ball rolling with Oujay early. Why feed Dieck the experience when others can get it? When he killed something, which more than likely he would if it was a direct attack, he would only get like 10-15 EXP when others would get 40 to 45? I may have overleveled him by that point even though I tried not to use him because of that reason. If everything had been defeated then of course Wendy and Barth won't get to do anything and it'd be best to leave them behind, especially Barth. But if you're not going for that, if you're having a fresh run, then it's NEVER a bad investment to train up Oujay. I feel like these four feelings kill Oujay:

1. Oujay's stats scare people away because they have Dieck and Rutger pretty bolstered already.

2. They don't want another sword user.

3. He comes too late and babying him might not prove to be efficient because of #1 above.

4. Fighting for Hero's Crest (which has been confirmed in this thread)


Now THAT I can understand. Lower turn rounds, of course I'd agree with you there about Marcus, you'd have to be an idiot not to, unfortunately, I not ONCE mentioned doing a low turn run so that virtually doesn't apply to me and my statement whatsoever. Don't say I'm COMPLETELY wrong because as far as I'm concerned I'm not going for low turn counts and Marcus will never be used. How did I lose my credibility? I generally don't like to use post-promotion units except for a few exceptions, (Harken, Jaffar, Stefan, Saleh) especially if I haven't got around to promoting my own yet. I'll have to experiment more with Percival. I will admit, I'm a bit biased and haven't really given him a chance. Although, I DID say he was deserving. Cut me some slack here especially since I'm getting lynched all by my lonesome.

On a normal playthrough, would anything you all have said be most efficient? Not everyone wants to play hard mode and not everyone wants to have a low turn count run but this is about me and not everyone else. Don't sit here and try to insinuate that you're better than me (which has me kinda feeling that way) or that I'm just a troll and have no legitimacy whatsoever. Just give someone a chance that has an unyielding belief. I guarantee you'll meet others like me, but one thing that I WILL do is come to terms. I'll never say you're outright wrong. I will see where you are coming from but I cannot be swayed.

I feel Oujay is better than Dieck in every way, shape, and form. I feel stat comparisons are a cop-out just because of this game's randomness. You could end up with something radically different. Just saying.

I apologize if there are any mistakes in that essay because once I get going I do NOT proofread.

tl;dr? Whatever. You get what I mean here. I'll probably still be a troll.
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Who Am I? Winner of the Pokemon X Board: TalesOfXAndY
#57Sword_of_DuskPosted 1/14/2014 7:26:46 PM
No one said that Oujay can't be used, but rather he just falters in comparison to Dieck. Everything that's been said is just how it is. The fact that there's such randomness in unit stats due to the RNG adds to the fact that personal experience with a unit generally can't be accepted. Besides, there's one thing that cements Dieck's superiority: his Con. The man can handle most weapons with no loss of AS. Oujay can't. Clear advantage here.
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#58Flamingace18Posted 1/14/2014 7:31:24 PM
Oujay has no business being used period if you're going for rankings and or efficiency. Dieck is a far superior unit. Not to mention he should be your second and final sword user you take outside of Roy. Ruger > Dieck > Fir >>> Oujay.
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#59CataclysmicalPosted 1/15/2014 3:57:07 PM
No, I'm called a troll because...

PEMN. Also, the numbers I've given you prove that Oujay is worse than Dieck, and it's not the other way around. The only way you can compare characters in a game where RNG determines the level ups is by their averages, as it's the only relevant form of information. A unit getting blessed does not mean that they're intrinsically better than another unit; it means the unit got blessed, and it's pretty clear why we shouldn't work with randomness if we want to debate a character's usefulness.

What does a lower turn count award? I purposefully take a while on that stage so I can get the ball rolling with Oujay early. Why feed Dieck the experience when others can get it? When he killed something, which more than likely he would if it was a direct attack, he would only get like 10-15 EXP when others would get 40 to 45?

As I said, a lower turn count is the most "advanced" way to play Fire Emblem, and the most strategically complex. It's rewarding because it's mastery of the game and is far more difficult than a normal run; in general, once you understand any Fire Emblem game, running through the story is piss easy and it can add some challenge. You say it's never a bad idea to train Oujay, but I've given you numbers that prove Dieck is better than Oujay on average, he has more availability, and you have to waste your time babying him. Once again, people are calling you a troll because you're saying "averages don't mean anything" when it's the only reasonable way to compare units statistically. I can RNG abuse and get perfect level ups on Dieck and max him out; clearly he must be better than Oujay, right?

1. Oujay's stats scare people away because they have Dieck and Rutger pretty bolstered already.

What stats? The ones that are, on average, worse than Dieck's or hardly better? The ones that lose 2 AS from carrying a steel sword?

3. He comes too late and babying him might not prove to be efficient because of #1 above.

Babying any unit is bad in any Fire Emblem game, and is always a severe strike against them as characters. In general, Fire Emblem games throw so many good units at you at decent levels that babying a unit that might be slightly better than one you had previously is a total waste of time. I bet you use Nino.

Now THAT I can understand. Lower turn rounds, of course I'd agree with you there about Marcus, you'd have to be an idiot not to, unfortunately, I not ONCE mentioned doing a low turn run so that virtually doesn't apply to me and my statement whatsoever..

Just because you don't do low turn count runs doesn't mean that it shouldn't be mentioned. Why is this? Because it's points in Dieck's favor; he is extremely invaluable in low turn count runs and is one of your best units for the entire game. It's just more and more points stacking in Dieck's favor against Oujay. You'd have a hell of a time getting through without Dieck; you can scrap Oujay and not worry about a damn thing.

I feel Oujay is better than Dieck in every way, shape, and form. I feel stat comparisons are a cop-out just because of this game's randomness. You could end up with something radically different. Just saying.

Stat comparisons are what we use to mitigate the random element in debates; we go off the averages of their growths, because there's no better way to compare a character. On AVERAGE. Oujay can be better than Dieck. Dieck can also be better than Oujay. In the end, you're just being incredibly stubborn for no real reason despite the facts showing you otherwise, which leads me to believe you're just trying to waste my time.
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"bro cutting yourself isn't a knife fight its psychopathic" -Delibirdation
http://www.last.fm/user/catamylistic
#60Wandering__HeroPosted 1/15/2014 5:23:20 PM
Oujay is but an ant before Sedgar
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