Oujay is STILL the greatest Hero of Fire Emblem.

#61TaiphlosionPosted 1/15/2014 5:55:30 PM
masterman97 posted...
How am I a troll? You guys are too used to that term and can't see when someone is actually being genuine. I put "imo" for a reason; but when it comes to the pure long run, Oujay is the best candidate for Hero. No stat comparisons will deter me. I use all four and Oujay is simply better. Rutger is better than Fir, I agree.

He came in late behind a wall..with enemies. Okay? He killed them with Wendy's help. Barth did nothing. My team was already there to support in case things got rough. You've got to get the wheels going early. I feel you guys don't take risks. On that one island fog chapter with all pirates, Oujay went from 6 to 12 by killing the nonstop spawning ocean pirates and easily overshadowed Dieck, making up for his late arrival and THEN killed the Berserker boss.

Also, GOOD players don't use Marcus in general I feel. But there is no being "good" at Fire Emblem so I'll say strategically advanced. He's awful and a waste of space EXP hog. Sure, he can whittle down bosses easily but I've done greatly without him so far. Zealot is the same. If anything, Percival deserves the usage but he's somewhat a waste too albeit a better waste.


oh, ok you just suck at fire emblem.
nice to know that.
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#62TaiphlosionPosted 1/15/2014 5:59:14 PM(edited)
By the way, if using them makes the game "easier", it's not a waste of xp. Letting marcus kill some things will make winning the game more reliable. Percival has better stats than ALance for a long time (and I'm a Lance fanboy!). Zealot also helps a lot, especially in his joining chapter.

But whatever. You actually bother wasting 200 turns in order to make wendy usable. Anyone who says Wendy is a good unit should be completely ignored.
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#63RDS1Posted 1/15/2014 6:42:26 PM
masterman97 posted...
I feel Oujay is better than Dieck in every way, shape, and form. I feel stat comparisons are a cop-out just because of this game's randomness. You could end up with something radically different. Just saying.


Alright, I'll bite. Here are two things for you to consider:

1. Dieck joins in chapter 2; Oujay joins in chapter 8. This is not a random factor; there is no possibility that either of them would join your army in any different chapter. In terms of join time, Dieck is better than Oujay, because you can't possibly argue that joining later is better than joining earlier.

2. Dieck's base Con is 13; Oujay's base Con is 8. Con, if you recall, is one of the two stats that are never changed outside of promotion or stat-boosting items, the other being Move (which is equal for both characters). Promotion and stat-boosting items increase stats by fixed amounts, and all promotion items and stat-boosters in the game are found in fixed locations in fixed chapters; therefore, there is no randomness involved in the Con stat, so you cannot object to it being used in a comparison. Now, the fact is that Oujay's Con is lower than Dieck's Con. It is technically possible to use stat-boosting items to make Oujay's Con higher than Dieck's, but this cannot be done until chapter 21 and requires blatant favoritism on the player's part, so for all intents and purposes, Oujay's Con will never be higher than Dieck's. This means that Dieck can more easily use heavy weapons than Oujay can. It also means that Oujay can be more easily Rescued than Dieck can; however, the main value of Rescue is in either allowing the rescued unit to travel further than normal, or pulling a unit away from danger. In either case, Rescue is most effectively accomplished by a mounted unit, and I believe all mounted units can Rescue Dieck by default anyway. Therefore, ease of Rescue is not an issue, and thus, the only issue is in weapon weight and attack speed. In terms of the Con stat, Dieck is better than Oujay, because you can't argue that being able to use fewer weapons without suffering greater penalties is a positive thing.

tl;dr:
* Dieck beats Oujay in join time.
* Dieck beats Oujay in Con.
* Neither of the above factors are subject to randomness.
* Therefore, if Oujay is indeed better at Dieck in any way, shape, or form, there are at least two ways in which he is not, and the fact that he is not better than Dieck in these area is absolutely immutable. Thus, Oujay is not better than Dieck in every way, shape, or form.

If you like Oujay better, just say you like him better. But saying Oujay just is better is simply not true.
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#64masterman97(Topic Creator)Posted 1/15/2014 7:10:09 PM
Oujay levels up and gets around five +1's across the board. Dieck usually only gets two or three.

But why should averages matter to me if Oujay is better than Dieck FOR ME on every run I do? How can I believe that if Oujay is better? I can max out Oujay too. He gets better level ups than Dieck. So, you have fun being a hardcore player. I'll stick to being a lame casual who can only run through the piss easy story on a normal run. On average, Dieck may edge out Oujay. Oujay may edge out Dieck. It seems Dieck edges out a little more, but my data goes in favor of Oujay. EVERY time. The stats were probably rigged in favor of Dieck just so I could be proven wrong on this day. (JUST KIDDING fyi don't get mad)

I see what you said. On average. Like I said, Rutger and Dieck have already been used thoroughly since Dieck is pretty much a crutch and Oujay doesn't get a chance since he is already beaten. Badly. He's beaten even if you don't touch Dieck all the way up until Oujay is introduced. But he shoots past him once he gets rolling.

I have used Nino and I liked her, but that is SERIOUS late game and Oujay/Wendy is nothing like that so that babying assumption is reaching a bit far. I bet your playthroughs aren't divergent in any way. Fire Emblem throws good units at you...so? Do you not experiment with others? Units that suck one playthrough may turn out to be excellent in another. It just so happens that Oujay is great regardless. I thought you liked low turn runs and the "strategically" advanced hard mode and crap? Use different units and adapt to that, try it, go outside of the norm. Let's see how you do then, Cata. Let's see you "challenge" yourself. Or are you afraid to handicap yourself? You afraid to "waste your time" although it is with a game you enjoy? If you are getting through the game regardless, how is it a waste of time if it's only one or two units that can easily catch up within a chapter or two? Especially when they blow past their competition? lol

I sense a little hostility in your words here now. How about I scrap Dieck and use MARCUS? Hmm? I'm pretty sure then I'd do fine without Dieck because I avoided using him anyway since he didn't get much EXP earlier on. By the time I get Oujay, I'd say sayonara to Dieck if I used him to begin with. But like I said, Dieck is good, just not better than Oujay....IMO.

That's all you had to say. Oujay can be better than Dieck. Thank you! Because he is for me. On average, Dieck is better than Oujay. Okay. However, my data supports Oujay instead.
Here we go with more "wasting my time" crap. Dude, you post on an online message board arguing about two fictional mercenaries and this ridiculously old game. I'll be like you now. I BET you have nothing better to do.

I wouldn't type all this crap just to be a troll. I'm actually intrigued by this.

If Oujay and Dieck both came on the stage, who would edge out who by the end of the game?

@Taiphlosion
How about you ignore me then? Stop commenting and GTFO you scrub. lol this has nothing to do with you. You're a troll for trolling me and saying I suck. I mentioned Wendy a few days ago and you're still posting in this topic even though I should have been completely ignored afterwards because of that, so you say. So yeah. Have fun waddling in the mud while me and Cata engage in checkers. You want your pacifier? You cranky, son?

I wanted to type all of that before I left. Where are you from, Cata?
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#65masterman97(Topic Creator)Posted 1/15/2014 7:20:13 PM
RDS1 posted...
masterman97 posted...
I feel Oujay is better than Dieck in every way, shape, and form. I feel stat comparisons are a cop-out just because of this game's randomness. You could end up with something radically different. Just saying.


Alright, I'll bite. Here are two things for you to consider:

1. Dieck joins in chapter 2; Oujay joins in chapter 8. This is not a random factor; there is no possibility that either of them would join your army in any different chapter. In terms of join time, Dieck is better than Oujay, because you can't possibly argue that joining later is better than joining earlier.

2. Dieck's base Con is 13; Oujay's base Con is 8. Con, if you recall, is one of the two stats that are never changed outside of promotion or stat-boosting items, the other being Move (which is equal for both characters). Promotion and stat-boosting items increase stats by fixed amounts, and all promotion items and stat-boosters in the game are found in fixed locations in fixed chapters; therefore, there is no randomness involved in the Con stat, so you cannot object to it being used in a comparison. Now, the fact is that Oujay's Con is lower than Dieck's Con. It is technically possible to use stat-boosting items to make Oujay's Con higher than Dieck's, but this cannot be done until chapter 21 and requires blatant favoritism on the player's part, so for all intents and purposes, Oujay's Con will never be higher than Dieck's. This means that Dieck can more easily use heavy weapons than Oujay can. It also means that Oujay can be more easily Rescued than Dieck can; however, the main value of Rescue is in either allowing the rescued unit to travel further than normal, or pulling a unit away from danger. In either case, Rescue is most effectively accomplished by a mounted unit, and I believe all mounted units can Rescue Dieck by default anyway. Therefore, ease of Rescue is not an issue, and thus, the only issue is in weapon weight and attack speed. In terms of the Con stat, Dieck is better than Oujay, because you can't argue that being able to use fewer weapons without suffering greater penalties is a positive thing.

tl;dr:
* Dieck beats Oujay in join time.
* Dieck beats Oujay in Con.
* Neither of the above factors are subject to randomness.
* Therefore, if Oujay is indeed better at Dieck in any way, shape, or form, there are at least two ways in which he is not, and the fact that he is not better than Dieck in these area is absolutely immutable. Thus, Oujay is not better than Dieck in every way, shape, or form.

If you like Oujay better, just say you like him better. But saying Oujay just is better is simply not true.


I did say I liked him better.
Oujay is better.

...

jk

But you just said Dieck is straight up better! I will agree that Dieck has been able to double with an Armorslayer while Oujay can't. It sucks. That can't be changed until whenever. I agree and can't argue with that because it's impossible to justify a refute there. I won't say Dieck is straight up better however. Oujay can easily make up for his time of not being on the team through that pirate fog stage, like I said. And he could end up surpassing Dieck.
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#66CataclysmicalPosted 1/15/2014 7:24:09 PM
I wanted to type all of that before I left. Where are you from, Cata?

I live in Maryland.

But why should averages matter to me if Oujay is better than Dieck FOR ME on every run I do?

Averages matter because units will very often converge onto the averages portrayed for them...because they're averages. If we didn't have averages, then we'd have little way to determine what units to use most of the time; you can expect a certain performance from the unit a majority of the time, which is why we stick by these units.

But he shoots past him once he gets rolling.

Not on average. In fact, by the time you get Oujay, Dieck will probably be beating him in every single stat handily and can maintain that lead for the rest of the game until 20/20.

Do you not experiment with others? Units that suck one playthrough may turn out to be excellent in another.

While this is true, it's not something that can be relied on. For instance, I had a run in FE7 where Marcus turned out to be a god and got amazing level ups through out the entire game. Can we reasonably expect this to happen every single time? No, we can't, because Marcus' growths are very lackluster, so most of the time, he's going to be a crappy unit once your other units get going.

I thought you liked low turn runs and the "strategically" advanced hard mode and crap? Use different units and adapt to that, try it, go outside of the norm. Let's see how you do then, Cata. Let's see you "challenge" yourself.

You're insinuating that just because I very often do low turn count runs, that means I never play the game casually myself, which would be wrong. In fact, when I do play the game casually, I generally try to use units that aren't that great, because I have more fun that way, but that's neither here nor there. When we're evaluating a unit objectively, we only have the averages to work on as well as supports and availability. The more useful a unit is, the better they're going to be and the more they're going to contribute. You can beat any Fire Emblem however you want, and in casual playthroughs, stuff like this doesn't even actually matter, because you're not placing limitations on yourself such as beating the chapter in the fastest amount of time possible; when you're playing Fire Emblem casually, any of them, there's no point in objectively analyzing and evaluating units because you can use whatever units you want and still handily beat the game. This is why we turn to low turn count runs or high ranking runs as our method of evaluation regarding a unit, because otherwise, it doesn't actually matter. As I said, it's fine that you like Oujay, but the main underlying point here is that he's inferior to Dieck and Dieck contributes from the moment he joins, while Oujay takes time to get going and then he'll be comparable to Dieck. This is averages, but it's all we have to work with when evaluating how useful a unit is. Sorry if I am coming across a little hostile; that's not my intention, I'm just a pretty forceful guy when I argue.

Dieck is good, just not better than Oujay....IMO.

I feel like a broken record but you can't work with opinions when we're evaluating a unit's usefulness. You can work with the averages, IE, what you can reasonably expect the unit to do consistently.

Here we go with more "wasting my time" crap. Dude, you post on an online message board arguing about two fictional mercenaries and this ridiculously old game. I'll be like you now. I BET you have nothing better to do.

I don't really have anything better to do, but I do enjoy arguing, so I'm spending my time doing something I enjoy, at the very least. Still, I get your point, and sorry.
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#67CataclysmicalPosted 1/15/2014 7:29:50 PM(edited)
If Oujay and Dieck both came on the stage, who would edge out who by the end of the game?

I refer to you the averages comparison I posted back on the last page. Oujay will lead in speed slightly, but generally, Dieck will be able to wield the heavier weapons and double with them while Oujay will have trouble doing the same, which means I'd give the edge to Dieck here. Otherwise, they'll perform about the same.

But you just said Dieck is straight up better! I will agree that Dieck has been able to double with an Armorslayer while Oujay can't. It sucks. That can't be changed until whenever. I agree and can't argue with that because it's impossible to justify a refute there. I won't say Dieck is straight up better however. Oujay can easily make up for his time of not being on the team through that pirate fog stage, like I said. And he could end up surpassing Dieck.

The thing about this is that Dieck is able to do every single thing that Oujay does on this map, but he does it better. I'm not sure about enemy stats on that chapter, but I believe Oujay actually has a rough time against the axe users on hard mode.
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#68The Fir CoatPosted 1/15/2014 7:39:28 PM
Dieck's bases are also better than Oujay's, so if they came at the same time Dieck would still be better. Also, Dieck comes with the Iron Blade that he can use without AS penalty that would make Oujay's AS 5, which is the same as Barth's.

Oujay isn't worth using unless you're a real Oujay fanboy, he's not a good character when compared to any of the other Hero Crest characters besides Wade and arguably Geese.
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#69masterman97(Topic Creator)Posted 1/15/2014 7:50:35 PM
See, now this is something I enjoy. I'm away and posting from mobile but I will be sure to respond when I am off.

I hope that you guys see that I'm not a troll now. I can admit when I am wrong and I publicly apologize for seeming to be a mule.
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Who Am I? Winner of the Pokemon X Board: TalesOfXAndY
#70RDS1Posted 1/16/2014 12:54:57 AM
masterman97 posted...
But you just said Dieck is straight up better! I will agree that Dieck has been able to double with an Armorslayer while Oujay can't. It sucks. That can't be changed until whenever. I agree and can't argue with that because it's impossible to justify a refute there. I won't say Dieck is straight up better however. Oujay can easily make up for his time of not being on the team through that pirate fog stage, like I said. And he could end up surpassing Dieck.


Ah, but now you're falling back on favoritism and randomness for your argument. The point of my post was that you complained that stat comparisons weren't a valid argument against Oujay because of the game's random factors, so I took away anything that could be considered a random factor and compared what was left. In this lack of randomness, I found two points in which Dieck and Oujay differed, and in both cases, the differences between them favored Dieck over Oujay.

So yes, given a lack of random factors, Dieck is just straight up better than Oujay.

This doesn't mean that through random chance, Oujay can't become better than Dieck. However, saying that Oujay will always become better than Dieck if you bother to train him also isn't true. This is how randomness works; it's not something you can always count on. What you can count on is that Dieck has a better base to build off of: because he joins earlier, he doesn't take as much effort to get on par with your team, and because he has higher Con, he doesn't suffer as much from upgrading to stronger weapons, allowing to have higher damage output more reliably.

To put it another way, you can't always count on Oujay ending up stronger than Dieck. But you can always count on Dieck starting out stronger than Oujay; as in, when Dieck first joins, he's already capable of pulling his weight and can be a valuable party member for a while, but when Oujay first joins, he won't be able to pull his weight unless you feed him some kills first. That's why people are saying Dieck is better: because using him takes less effort ("minor effort" isn't less than "no effort") and is less of a gamble.
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