Kara's Tier List - Preliminary Discussion

#1LordKarasumanPosted 4/28/2012 7:10:38 PM(edited)
Allo, allo, allo. Just another person throwing their hat in the ring with regards to tiering this massive cluster of characters. For anyone trying this, Koei sure didn't make our jobs easy. Hell, I've only properly tried about twenty or so characters in Chaos, and I'm still not sure about half of them. Please prep any harsh criticism accordingly, though all community input is welcome.

Criteria
1) The below criteria are not set in stone, and subject to flexibility or removal.

2) The difficulty is set to Chaos.

3) Weapons used are fully upgraded, and are either Big Star or have at least 40 strength as a base.

4) Three missions are being used for to test characters.
4a) Prelude to Apocalypse - Because of the Susano'o/Nezha battle you can force at the very start and the clusters of officers who can gang up on you.
4b) World's End - Because of Orochi X, whose powered up form-- if you allow Kiyomori Taira to strengthen him-- is probably the toughest individual opponent in the game aside from powered up Nezha at Osaka Castle

5) Brilliance is banned, because Brilliance in tandem with certain other attributes highly trivializes the gameplay of many characters and serves to condense the tiers too much.

6) Interim Saves are banned.

Questions I ask myself when playing:
How safe are my moves?
How well am I doing against officers? Or groups of officers?
How well am I doing against crowds?
Am I using panic buttons often?
How do other characters compare?

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WKC: Ilse
#2LordKarasuman(Topic Creator)Posted 4/28/2012 7:09:27 PM(edited)
Below is the current prototype Tier List of characters I've used so far. Note that I don't have a proper system, numerical or otherwise, set up yet, so this is only how I "feel" they're ranked. Of course one will be set up later, probably based on a whole lot of yes/no questions along with amount of resources used. When I say "resources", I mean panic buttons like Musous and Triple Musous, and other miscellaneous things like the resurrections you can get from having Orochi X and Susano'o in a team.

S
Gracia Hosokawa
Zhuge Liang

A
Lu Xun
Nagamasa Azai

B
Cao Cao
Gyuki
Liu Shan
Aya Gozen
Ayane

C
Zhang Liao
Diao Chan
Ding Feng

D
Okuni
Sima Yi
Huang Gai
Pang Tong

E
Yoshimoto Imagawa
Kiyomori Taira

F
Magoichi Saiga
Guo Huai

G
Goemon Ishikawa
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WKC: Ilse
#3LordKarasuman(Topic Creator)Posted 4/28/2012 7:03:55 PM(edited)
Zhuge Liang
++ Ridiculous range on S-String means Kongming gets to smack his enemies before they're even in range.
++ ... Which, combined with his Wonder category, means you will be bypassing enemy defenses or getting out of any dangerous situations, with your foes having no say in the matter.
+++ C3-3 kills everything, ever.
+ C4 is also ridiculously effective.
+ Both of the above can serve as interchangable BnBs that recover his health and musou bar with laughable ease.
+ R1 is a cheap panic button that, while lacking in strength, tells most enemies to get out.
+ Musou is not so cheap, but does tremendous damage even without the proper weapon attributes.

Hosokawa Gracia
+ C4-4 is her best move.
+ C2 and C3 are usable.
+ Her S-String is deceptively good. The range is nowhere near as bad as it looks, and she has forward movement on her attacks which allows her to avoid getting hit and even flank opponents.
+ Because of the above, even her C5 is usable.
+ While technically optional, Echo+Typhoon will solve virtually all range problems.
+ With Typhoon, her R1 will summon up a Typhoon upon completion of its animation.
++ ... Which can be canceled out of using Wonder category's X-cancel.
+++ ... Meaning R1 is basically an invincible, at-will guardbreak.
++++ ... That can be pointed in any appropriate direction of your choice, at your leisure, since the animation takes so long to end.
+++++ ... You'll also be granted healing, along with invincibility against a number of hits.
++++++ ... During which point you can regain the miniscule amount of Musou bar lost by using C4-4.
+++++++ Congratulations, you have achieved complete immortallity!
* While you are liable to lose the complete and utter cheapness of the above tactic, replacing Echo and Typhoon with Confluence and Prosperity effectively turns her into the best weapon and money farmer in the game, because Prosperity combined with Fortune and Pleiades Belts means a plethora of laughably powerful weapons for everyone.

Lu Xun
+ Solid S-String.
+ Combines Cao Cao's range with actual mobility.
+ C5 is probably your best move.
++ Great mobility from being Speed category.
* Lacks the extremely cheap tricks of anyone up above.

Nagamasa Azai
+ Solid S-String.
+ C6 is your best move.
+ C4 and C5 have their uses as well.
+ In possession of one of the rare R1s that can utilize Osmosis and Absorption. Hello, self-sustaining Musou-using attack.
++ Great mobility from being Speed category, for the most part.
* Some moves have recovery frames such that even Speed's mobility options may take timing to activate. Keep this in mind.

Cao Cao
+ Enemies of Cao Cao (with Reach +10) have two configurations: getting hit, or flying in midair. Such is the dominating range of his S-String and the strength of his C6.
- Literally the only thing holding him back is below average mobility. Thank Technique category for that.

Gyuki
+ Can utterly destroy swaths of enemies with Aerial Charge.
- Has to blow item slots to keep from getting knocked around by arrows during Aerial Charge's recovery.
- Damage capability is kind of slow in Chaos, despite relative safety.

Liu Shan
+ C4 is probably your best move.
+ C3-stop-3 is your most swag move.
+ Extremely fast with Agility.
+ Since you're Wonder category, it's laughably easy to break guard and/or get out of trouble while staying mobile.
* You may be tempted to use C3-3~-3 instead of C3-stop-3. Don't.
* Extremely fast with Agility, timing attacks may take some getting used to
- Swinging arcs are such that enemies in front are taken care of, but encounters problems from surprise attacks in other directions
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WKC: Ilse
#4LordKarasuman(Topic Creator)Posted 4/28/2012 7:00:53 PM(edited)
Aya Gozen
+ R1 is a healing shield. Hello, super armor frames and refilling health bar!
++ ... and with Typhoon, she can cancel out of it if the wind funnel she brings up hits anything. Yay, Wonder category!
+ No seriously, Wonder category is a miracle of the universe and you should use it to stay mobile and to guardbreak foes. And by foes I mean fools. Fools who are depraved and don't respect love.
+ C4, C5, and C6 are all usable. Of these, C4 is probably the one you will be using most.
- Unlike Gracia, her range is actually as bad as it looks. Needs Reach and Typhoon, and even then, she has problems hitting things along with getting hit by things, considering she hardly moves during S-String.
- To extend on her range problems, her C4's range is WORSE than it looks. Compensate with Wonder category abuse.

Ayane
+ C2-2-2 is great fun for anyone who has ever played a Ninja Gaiden game.
+ C4 is alright for going in against a crowd of enemies.
+ C5 is probably your best move, despite the recovery issues.
* Freakishly fast with Agility. Adjust your timing accordingly.
* Avian Avengers is crucial to improving her range if you're not using Echo+Typhoon.

Zhang Liao
+ C4-4 is your best move. Improved movement and attack speed means once you get going, you're going to be difficult to stop.
+ Using C4-4's movement speed boost and timing it properly can substitute for regular horses.
+ If enemies are pestering you, C6 is also usable.
+ R1 does amazing damage even without Frenzy. WITH Frenzy you will pretty much wreck face.
- Somewhat laggy S-String before you get C4-4 off. Recommend using C4-4 outside of or before engaging a crowd.

Diao Chan
+ As with Zhang Liao, use C4-4. Improved movement and attack speed means once you get going, you're going to be difficult to stop.
+ Using C4-4's movement speed boost and timing it properly can substitute for regular horses.
+ R1 does low damage without the proper attributes, but it's a great way for getting out of a hairy situation.
- You NEED Echo+Typhoon, or at least just Typhoon.
- Mostly attacks in front of her, meaning incoming enemies from other directions are a problem.

Ding Feng
+ Has so many uninterruptable grabs it's like Koei put Mike Haggar, Mayor of Earth in the game.
+ Lots of usable charge attacks. Figure him out, he's extremely fun.
+ R1 is useful for those rare moments when you actually want enemies out of your face.
- Grab hitboxes get wonky, and nearly gotten me killed on many occasions. Be wary of this volatility.

Okuni
+ C5 is your best move. Has plenty of range due to firebals that will wipe out pesky archers, too.
+ Wonder type means you get to have fun with guardbreaks and have solid mobility.
- Bad overall range.
- Slight delay prior to C5 can mean the difference between life and death. Abuse Wonder's ability to cancel out of regular S-String to open up enemies if necessary.

Sima Yi
+ Like Zhuge Liang, you usually have control over engaging your opponents because your S-String's forward range is so damned stupid.
+ C4 is probably your best move.
+ C3-3 is somewhat usable, but it comes nowhere near Zhuge Liang's in terms of effectiveness, and due to the path of the lightning on the floor, will often miss opponents coming in from certain angles.
* I miss the laugh Zhongda used to have during his C4.
- Needs Ice for better stopping power, since the recovery on his best attacks is bad.
- Trades mobility for only above average range. Kongming superior.

Huang Gai
+ C3 is your best move.
+ C3-3 is also pretty good, provided you can land the grab.
+ R1 is funny as hell.
- Odd hitboxes. I tend to miss things all the time using Huang Gai's hammer, and it has killed me before.
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WKC: Ilse
#5ArethaiPosted 4/28/2012 6:20:33 PM
This is a very large, tedious, undertaking that will have many naysayers. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.
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#6olijollyPosted 4/28/2012 6:20:54 PM
I am...very surprised to see nagamasa azai on tier A.
What are your reasons/setup for azai for putting him in such...high tier? Is it his R1 abuse?
So when you say tier S, is this the broken tier?
Also, I've said this in some other tiering threads but would you mind analyzing Zhou Tai and Xu Huang? People talk about them a lot and I was wondering if we could get them over with.
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PSN: olljolly
#7LordKarasuman(Topic Creator)Posted 4/28/2012 7:06:06 PM(edited)
Pang Tong
+ C5 is your only properly spammable move, sadly.
+ With Wonder category and generally alright attack speed, you can get through the day without having to use major panic buttons.
- Rather narrow spread of hitboxes, nearly straddles the line between being barely usable and being crippled. Abuse of Wonder category makes things easier.

Yoshimoto Imagawa
+ S-String is your best attack. No, really.
+ R1 heals plenty of health and tells nearby enemies to take a hike.
- Takes almost too long to get to the part of Yoshimoto's S-String that will actually utilize Absorption and Osmosis. R1 will have to be used plenty.
- S-String has only passable forward range while being relatively bad everywhere else.

Kiyomori Taira
+ Like Yoshimoto, S-String is your best attack.
+ R1 is a servicable panic button that will not kill your Musou bar AND does pretty good damage.
* You might be tempted to use C2-2-2. Really not a good idea.
- S-String's range has problems. Will have to manage Musou bar carefully, but generally you can stay in the green, so to speak.

Magoichi Saika
+ Recovers health and Musou bar easily on a horse.
* C1 is the only barely usable attack. Whose bright idea was it to allow so few attacks to recover health/Musou properly!?
* Wonder Category makes him barely mobile, but honestly, not even Speed would save him with his current moveset.
- May become reliant on mounted combat.
- Infuriatingly unsafe. Might want to bring Resurrection characters.

Guo Huai
+ Aerial Charge is safe and does good damage.
* C4 is somewhat usable and will replenish health and Musou bar, but mostly unsafe.
* C3 is also usable... but feels even more unsafe. Why can't you be backing off slightly or something, Guo Huai?
- Constantly has to alternate between attacks that cannot use Absorption/Osmosis, and those that do. Oscillating level of safety means unstable survivability; bring Resurrection characters.

Goemon Ishikawa
+ ... Passable in mounted combat with using C4.
* Only usable attack that will not get you stomped into the ground immediately is Aerial S-String. Jump and hit that square button repeatedly, friends, because it's your only hope of getting anywhere.
- Most likely reliant on mounted combat.
- The only character that has forced me to use Brilliance for non-Mounted combat because he's ridiculously bad otherwise. I may change my mind once I've gotten over my frustration with him and retooled his weapons.
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WKC: Ilse
#8TsurukePosted 4/28/2012 6:36:48 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#9Kenshin9248Posted 4/28/2012 6:37:45 PM
You have Ayane listed twice?
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#10LordKarasuman(Topic Creator)Posted 4/28/2012 6:40:09 PM
olijolly posted...
I am...very surprised to see nagamasa azai on tier A.
What are your reasons/setup for azai for putting him in such...high tier? Is it his R1 abuse?
So when you say tier S, is this the broken tier?
Also, I've said this in some other tiering threads but would you mind analyzing Zhou Tai and Xu Huang? People talk about them a lot and I was wondering if we could get them over with.


At the moment, S-Tier might as well be the Broken Tier. I can't imagine much else being as stupid as Kongming and Gracia are. Maybe Orochi X? Auto-super armor on his S-String looks kind of nice though the range on his C4 bugs me, and that's probably his best move.

Cao Cao would've been what an extremely solid and nearly flawless character from an older series entry would look like... Range and a good 360-degree charge attack that either has no recovery or has dealt with the enemy crowd easily.

Take that, and give him the actual mobility options that Orochi 3 can offer, and you have Lu Xun.

Then halve his range but keep his good coverage, and give him a sweet R1. Then you have Nagamasa.

But the key thing here is the mobility.

Kenshin9248 posted...
You have Ayane listed twice?

Whoops, thank you. It's fixed.
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WKC: Ilse