Did I just doom humanity? (Ending Spoilers)

#61SunsprayHoneyPosted 7/10/2014 11:45:41 AM
Wait what? The more ambiguous ending that I see (and others) IS based off what's in the game, as opposed to what Druckmann said which is why a lot of people don't acknowledge it (that and a lot of people probably aren't aware of his statement). So what does your analogy have to do with anything if you reversed things? You're saying you imagined an ending to RotJ that doesn't make sense and that's how you see it? Why are you bringing up implication when Druckmanns vision wasn't implied at all?

Unless you were agreeing with what I wrote, in which case sorry.
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#62Offspring7Posted 7/10/2014 9:26:20 PM
bolomd_basic posted...
TheGray250 posted...
bolomd_basic posted...
TheGray250 posted...
I can't believe no one has said this, so I feel I should: How the HELL were the Fireflies going to mass produce a vaccine on a global scale when all their main forces were reduced to a dingy hospital in Utah?! I have no doubt that they could make a vaccine, but as someone else pointed out, they are a rag tag group of terrorists. From what I saw, they didn't have the resources (or the trust enveloped in them) to distribute a vaccine to even one city.

Oh why am I so blind?!


I think that you should just assume that they would be able to mass produce the vaccine. It is meant to play that way. The beauty of the story is that Joel throws the cure for the world away to selfishly save one life. Who knows, in the sequel, they could just easily show a CDC lab that was secured and isolated deep in the Colorado mountains.....blah blah. It wouldn't make a difference.

Although I agree with you that Ellie leaving Joel doesn't make sense, I disagree that ambiguous endings are necessarily better. Ambiguous endings are only fitting when the question is so cosmic that it can't be answered. Movies often try to simplify broad issues to make the short 2 hour playtime palatable. This is different.


Okay, two things. First is that we cannot assume they could mass produce it because they just didn't have the supplies. No matter what way you slice it, they CAN'T. And secondly, I said that I find ambiguous endings better, but I never said anything about them being better for everyone. I only said they make you ponder the ending more, which is what everyone is still doing even a year after the release! That is beautiful! When the game came out last year, I was so conflicted in my feelings and I found myself pondering the game even when I wasn't playing. Rarely does a game do that for me! That is why I PERSONALLY believe ambiguous is better. And this is not different. The question still remains: What happens next for Joel and Ellie? Will Ellie confront him once again about what happened in Utah? We have no idea what happens next because we don't know her intentions when it comes to Joel.


There is nothing in the game that suggests that they can't produce it. The ability to produce the vaccine is never ambiguous. Why do you suggest otherwise? If the best you can say is "well, I don't think that would be the case," then you are just being stubborn.

That's like watching Superman and saying "No, he can't shoot lasers out of his eyes. That just doesn't seem logical given the basis of his powers." I mean, come on.


He never said they couldn't make it, he said they couldn't make such a mass amount, meaning there's no way to make a large enough quantity that the world could truly benefit from it as a whole with only the three doctors (were the other two doctors or just nurses? I can't recall) working on it. Granted I could see them scrounging up supplies from Hospitals (although realistically they'd probably all be murdered on the trips, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt lol), but other than that they seem SOL. This doesn't make Joel any less of a d*** though.
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#63XxAxem_BlackxXPosted 7/11/2014 1:26:23 AM
bolomd_basic posted...
I think that you should just assume that they would be able to mass produce the vaccine. It is meant to play that way. The beauty of the story is that Joel throws the cure for the world away to selfishly save one life.


Yeah but I think we should be looking at this through Joel's eyes. If you were him and saw the things he did would you have let them kill Ellie? At the beginning of the game a soldier murders his daughter and then 20 years later we see that humanity has been reduced to either quarantine zones where the military have absolute control and abuse their power on a regular basis, or scattered groups of hunters living in abandoned cities who kill outsiders for any reason, even if it only means getting a few scraps of food or a pair of shoes. I'm sure he would've felt like there was no humanity left to receive a vaccine even if they were able to make one.

And like TheGray said how were they supposed to create a vaccine and then send it all over the world? You can say maybe they had more people but again when you look at this from Joel's point of view he sees a few fireflies holed up in some rundown hospital. I wouldn't have believed in them either.
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#64preachinsinPosted 7/11/2014 6:34:06 AM(edited)
On the subject of Druckmann's interpretation of the ending, it's important to reiterate that a modern game is a collaborative effort, and even the writer and director do not always have absolute control over the finished product. Case in point: Kojima agreeing to change the ending to MGS4 due to concerns from members of his team.

Druckmann is to some degree showing his immaturity as a writer, in that he should really let people take his work as is, and not try to push too hard to have them see things his way. A lot of great works are "misinterpreted" by the masses (e.g. Green Day's "Good Riddance" is a break-up song), with the creator stepping back and keeping silent because that's what can happen when you give something you made to people.

Sometimes people see it your way and love it. Sometimes they see it a different way and love it. Sometimes they hate it. That's the great risk and reward of putting something you've worked so hard on out there for all to see. Trying to tell people how to view your finished story, especially when you are free to continue it, serves only to cheapen your accomplishment in telling a story that had a big impact on a lot of people. The story is as much theirs now as yours.
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#65Sol4688Posted 7/11/2014 6:45:07 AM
Dude, are you even listening? Its NOT fan fiction! Ellie leaving is the intended ending. Druckmann has said it many times! He just didn't tell it well enough, and allowed enough ambiguity for fanboys to come up with their own fan fiction. Druckmann sacrificed an explicit spoon feeding of the story for a poetic touch.

I don't think that the intended ending is a good one, since Ellie leaving seems like an uncharacteristic leap to me. I would have ended the story differently. But Ellie leaving is the intended ending. You are just being stubborn bro. Debating something is one thing. But someone just saying "NO NO NO" is pointless.


Well like it or not, unless he makes an official, canon installment into the story stating this, then it really isn't true.

Until he does that, Ellie leaving has about as much weight on the story as, say, the idea that Tess was really a bad guy who intended to torture Joel. It's just something the writers say "yeah, we COULD'VE done this, but ultimately didn't."

By all means, if a comic or novel or short movie or something officially put out by Naughty Dog confirms Ellie left, then I will eat my proverbial hat. Until then...
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#66bolomd_basicPosted 7/12/2014 8:34:31 AM
XxAxem_BlackxX posted...
bolomd_basic posted...
I think that you should just assume that they would be able to mass produce the vaccine. It is meant to play that way. The beauty of the story is that Joel throws the cure for the world away to selfishly save one life.


Yeah but I think we should be looking at this through Joel's eyes. If you were him and saw the things he did would you have let them kill Ellie? At the beginning of the game a soldier murders his daughter and then 20 years later we see that humanity has been reduced to either quarantine zones where the military have absolute control and abuse their power on a regular basis, or scattered groups of hunters living in abandoned cities who kill outsiders for any reason, even if it only means getting a few scraps of food or a pair of shoes. I'm sure he would've felt like there was no humanity left to receive a vaccine even if they were able to make one.

And like TheGray said how were they supposed to create a vaccine and then send it all over the world? You can say maybe they had more people but again when you look at this from Joel's point of view he sees a few fireflies holed up in some rundown hospital. I wouldn't have believed in them either.


Interesting points, but I don't understand how they relate to the fact of whether the Fireflies could create the vaccine. Their ability to create A vaccine is never in doubt. As to whether they could mass produce it, and whether it could succeed in changing the world back to the way it was, is open for debate. But even if they couldn't, even if they could only create it but never mass produce it, its irrelelvant to the thrust of the story.

Many people arguing a philosophical point would say that sacrificing one person to create a working vaccine is an easy decision. The point is that Joel decides that he is not going to let that happen. He isn't thinking, "well, I won't let them do it because I don't think that they could mass produce the vaccine." Even if they could, even if there was a working Johnson & Johnson laboratory ready to produce the vaccine, he would have still whisked Ellie away.
#67bolomd_basicPosted 7/12/2014 8:35:33 AM
preachinsin posted...
On the subject of Druckmann's interpretation of the ending, it's important to reiterate that a modern game is a collaborative effort, and even the writer and director do not always have absolute control over the finished product. Case in point: Kojima agreeing to change the ending to MGS4 due to concerns from members of his team.

Druckmann is to some degree showing his immaturity as a writer, in that he should really let people take his work as is, and not try to push too hard to have them see things his way. A lot of great works are "misinterpreted" by the masses (e.g. Green Day's "Good Riddance" is a break-up song), with the creator stepping back and keeping silent because that's what can happen when you give something you made to people.

Sometimes people see it your way and love it. Sometimes they see it a different way and love it. Sometimes they hate it. That's the great risk and reward of putting something you've worked so hard on out there for all to see. Trying to tell people how to view your finished story, especially when you are free to continue it, serves only to cheapen your accomplishment in telling a story that had a big impact on a lot of people. The story is as much theirs now as yours.


Interesting point.
#68ChaoticFairnessPosted 7/12/2014 3:25:44 PM
Some creators have to change things because of what a higher authority deems acceptable, and he obviously takes some pride in showing his viewpoint on what could have been in the story.
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#69BushidoEffect3Posted 7/12/2014 3:48:31 PM
NO tc.

what Joel haters forget is that the ending is still open to interpretation. The writer never strictly said or implied that there are NO other people who are immune, or no other possibility for a cure. The ending just cuts to credits. it's ambiguous.
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