Tier Lists = Theory Fighter!

#1StonerJackPosted 9/7/2012 7:45:51 AM
I just love how the game isn't even in the hands of the masses at large and here we are already having our character selections dictated by imaginary tier lists. Well, not mine cause I'm gonna use who the **** I feel like and master them in days.

The point of my little tirade? All tier lists, especially this early in the game's life cycle, are 100% Theory Fighter. Absolutely zero merit behind them with the notable exceptions of any current Mishimas/Kazamas in the highest tier (because that's always been a staple throughout the series).

Tier lists made this early are made by people who've had access to the game way before the rest of the public. Typically pro players or lucky Japanese/Korean arcade rats. In essence, not every possible outcome for every possible team or character has been fleshed out yet because Pro players play like pro players do: They find viable, impressive, combos and ignore everything else save for pressure tools.

To summarize, until every type of player has played with every (or most) combination(s) of characters, that tier list is going to change quite a bit over the next 1-2 years. Some of the characters will even find drastic changes in tier standings.

Remember folks, this isn't like Street Fighter where a very limited set of moves will combo into or out of a very limited set of specials, supers, or ultras. Tekken is a unique game unlike any other. It's a game where there are a greater variety of possibilities in ways to pummel your opponent... a game where the greatest limitation is your reaction time and how you react to what. A game where there's more than one correct answer when you do react.

Phew. Sorry for the wall of text. Can you tell I REALLY love Tekken?
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PSN: Mister_Raccoon
This post contains my own opinions and/or experiences. YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY. I am KING of the CAPCOPS! Come at me!
#2gomitePosted 9/7/2012 7:56:58 AM
StonerJack posted...
I just love how the game isn't even in the hands of the masses at large and here we are already having our character selections dictated by imaginary tier lists. Well, not mine cause I'm gonna use who the **** I feel like and master them in days.

The point of my little tirade? All tier lists, especially this early in the game's life cycle, are 100% Theory Fighter. Absolutely zero merit behind them with the notable exceptions of any current Mishimas/Kazamas in the highest tier (because that's always been a staple throughout the series).

Tier lists made this early are made by people who've had access to the game way before the rest of the public. Typically pro players or lucky Japanese/Korean arcade rats. In essence, not every possible outcome for every possible team or character has been fleshed out yet because Pro players play like pro players do: They find viable, impressive, combos and ignore everything else save for pressure tools.

To summarize, until every type of player has played with every (or most) combination(s) of characters, that tier list is going to change quite a bit over the next 1-2 years. Some of the characters will even find drastic changes in tier standings.

Remember folks, this isn't like Street Fighter where a very limited set of moves will combo into or out of a very limited set of specials, supers, or ultras. Tekken is a unique game unlike any other. It's a game where there are a greater variety of possibilities in ways to pummel your opponent... a game where the greatest limitation is your reaction time and how you react to what. A game where there's more than one correct answer when you do react.

Phew. Sorry for the wall of text. Can you tell I REALLY love Tekken?


*applauds*
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"Wish I could last forever in a sig. lol"--(XVel)God gave you the backs of your hands for a reason, brother. Smack her down
#3redechidna16Posted 9/7/2012 8:00:37 AM
Haven't tier lists historically always been dictated by tournaments that the pros are participating in? Usually tiers are a result of how well characters do in tournament play and as a result those characters get more usage by the average fighting gamers. Like in Mortal kombat 9 I remember Kung Lao jumped to the top of the tier lists and a LOT of people started using him online
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#4faqbakaPosted 9/7/2012 8:02:25 AM
Tier Lists? Pfft... Don't you mean Tears List? You know... because of all the crying.
#5Kawasaki_X750Posted 9/7/2012 8:18:23 AM
these are wat usually make up tiers

Movesets
Learning Curving
Effectiveness in Tourneys
Useage of that character
Difficulty Usin' the Character
Matchups


I maybe leavin out something
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#6StonerJack(Topic Creator)Posted 9/7/2012 8:19:49 AM
redechidna16 posted...
Haven't tier lists historically always been dictated by tournaments that the pros are participating in? Usually tiers are a result of how well characters do in tournament play and as a result those characters get more usage by the average fighting gamers. Like in Mortal kombat 9 I remember Kung Lao jumped to the top of the tier lists and a LOT of people started using him online


I guess what I'm really saying is you can't make a tier list for this game the same way you would any other fighter simply because of the notably more diverse range of options available to get the same results.

Typically, tier lists are determined as you describe above but there's also a lot of influence from match-up data.

And match-up data (as well as tiers) will change quite dramatically as more people get their hands on the game. Not every great player can make it to a tournament before the game's official release. So there are still an infinite range of possibilities that some of the folks who make pre-release tier lists and match-up data haven't even tried or discovered yet.

Match-Up data, while useful, is also sort of flawed. In SSF4: AE, Dee Jay (my main) is one of the few characters whose match-up data is nearly consistent at the 5/5, 4/6, 6/4 levels. Basically, he has no bad match-ups per say (T. Hawk's data is actually worse than DAN'S) but his place in the tier list is quite low even with that in consideration.

I'm only this irate with pre-release tiers because it basically determines what my online matches are going to look like before EVO. As you mentioned in your MK9 example above, people placed in the top tier are usually the most overused simply because of their place in the tiers. Which means when I'm ready to rock my MokuKing dream team, I'm just gonna see a metric ****-ton of Mishimas/Kazamas/who-the-****-ever is in the A or S tiers.
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PSN: Mister_Raccoon
This post contains my own opinions and/or experiences. YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY. I am KING of the CAPCOPS! Come at me!
#7StonerJack(Topic Creator)Posted 9/7/2012 8:21:04 AM
faqbaka posted...
Tier Lists? Pfft... Don't you mean Tears List? You know... because of all the crying.


You need a refund from whatever comedy school you enrolled in, bruh.
Are you in Bryman or something?
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PSN: Mister_Raccoon
This post contains my own opinions and/or experiences. YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY. I am KING of the CAPCOPS! Come at me!
#8KenGi1226Posted 9/7/2012 8:23:43 AM
StonerJack posted...
To summarize, until every type of player has played with every (or most) combination(s) of characters, that tier list is going to change quite a bit over the next 1-2 years. Some of the characters will even find drastic changes in tier standings.


If this summery is your statement on the matter, it's extremely inaccurate. To this day the broadest portion of players call Creddy broken tier or Kazama counter's cheap and OP. Nope I can't agree with your statement. The tournament players are already playing this game. Then you have a separated list of tiers with online players completely contrasting consistent facts.
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#9redechidna16Posted 9/7/2012 8:26:54 AM
StonerJack posted...
redechidna16 posted...
Haven't tier lists historically always been dictated by tournaments that the pros are participating in? Usually tiers are a result of how well characters do in tournament play and as a result those characters get more usage by the average fighting gamers. Like in Mortal kombat 9 I remember Kung Lao jumped to the top of the tier lists and a LOT of people started using him online


I guess what I'm really saying is you can't make a tier list for this game the same way you would any other fighter simply because of the notably more diverse range of options available to get the same results.

Typically, tier lists are determined as you describe above but there's also a lot of influence from match-up data.

And match-up data (as well as tiers) will change quite dramatically as more people get their hands on the game. Not every great player can make it to a tournament before the game's official release. So there are still an infinite range of possibilities that some of the folks who make pre-release tier lists and match-up data haven't even tried or discovered yet.

Match-Up data, while useful, is also sort of flawed. In SSF4: AE, Dee Jay (my main) is one of the few characters whose match-up data is nearly consistent at the 5/5, 4/6, 6/4 levels. Basically, he has no bad match-ups per say (T. Hawk's data is actually worse than DAN'S) but his place in the tier list is quite low even with that in consideration.

I'm only this irate with pre-release tiers because it basically determines what my online matches are going to look like before EVO. As you mentioned in your MK9 example above, people placed in the top tier are usually the most overused simply because of their place in the tiers. Which means when I'm ready to rock my MokuKing dream team, I'm just gonna see a metric ****-ton of Mishimas/Kazamas/who-the-****-ever is in the A or S tiers.


When you say "MokuKing" I assume you'll be using Mokujin and King. I LOVE mokujin but don't have the balls to use a character like that simply because it's just too risky. Although mad props to anyone who can use mokujin and do well with him, just shows you have a considerable amount od knowledge on how the game works. Also, King will be my main in this game regardless of where he is/ends up on the tiers. Has been since tekken 3 and I don't intend to change that. Don't know who im gonna use to team him up with, maybe Lee simply because he's such a badass. Hopefully I can get some god team synergy with them
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GT: FL3AZY
#10SpooferPosted 9/7/2012 8:35:21 AM(edited)
Wth? The game has been out for over a year now. It has already been played millions of times by thousands of players. All across the globe, though obviously it was more easily played in the east.

I think that gives them the right to formulate a tier list. Can tier lists change? OF COURSE THEY CAN, THANKS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS. Is the current tier list an accurate gauge of how the characters fall in place at high levels of play, a year into the game? Uh... yeah.
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