Harada needs to be brave and introduce

#141BlackShinobi13Posted 11/10/2012 10:03:23 AM
unceramonius posted...
As for side stepping hop kicks....hmmmm, ill try to incorporate that...but the problem is just how quick and spammable they are. And the fact they lead to bound.


Please work on your evasion, everything that you've said that you have a problem with in this entire topic basically boils down to the fact that you need to seriously work on your movement and spacing. Your problem with bounds and walls and damage all goes back to an initial hit that you are taking that can usually be avoided.

You are looking at the game as where you are and below you, instead of looking at it as where you are and above you. Where you now are hop kicks are a problem, itís the same for other people on your level, so if you have a talk with people on your level it will probably turn into very anti hop kick/ juggles conversation and the same is true for people on a skill level below you. But when you get serious tekken player in a room that talk goes away because bad hop kicks and launchers get you punched in the face and everyone in the conversation knows it.

It more of a social thing, you can say things like hop kicks are a serious problem because they are so quick and spammable on Gamefaqs, because there are people at a skill level where they will agree with you, but in couple of hours I am heading out to a Tekken tournament and if I said the same thing in that room everyone would look at me like I was a complete idiot. It's not that I don't know that there is a skill level where this stuff is a problem, itís just that I also know that once you get past that level these problems go away.

High schoolers get math work that the average elementary school kid couldn't even begin to understand, if you ask a first grader trigonometry is impossible, that doesn't mean it actually is impossible; in fact that same first grader will probably have no problem with it by the time they finish high school. Practice more, your problems arenít problems with Tekken's mechanics they are problems with being able to see your current skill level in context .
#142EvilSakuraiPosted 11/10/2012 10:12:57 AM
Juggle breakers are a bad idea. Period. End of story.

It'd be better for the game if they just cut down the length of them instead of add breakers. Seriously, breakers do NOTHING for the game, other than make scrubs feel like they're still playing.

How would we get them to work anyways? Meter management? 1 breaker per round? 1 breaker per game? AS MANY AS YOU GODDAMN WANT????

There lies the problem... We're either going to have to add some stupid mechanic that ruins the simplicity of the game (You saw how they did this in SC... Twice. Didn't work), or you're going to make them really week, or over powered.

1 breaker per round? How bout I just throw out short combos. If you break it, you'll waste your breaker, and I'll go for a big one. If you don't, I'll just do it again.

1 per game? Yeah, that's helpful. Watch people waste it on the first launcher.



In the end, it'll become a AUGH IM ABOUT TO DIE button. AKA: Useless.


As many as you want? You just ruined the game, good job.




There should not be, and will not be, combo breakers in Tekken. Period.
If you don't like getting comboed, they might cut down on how long they are. Or play Soul Calibur, because most of the people complaining about this are probably from a SC, SSB, DOA, or SF (Not marvel) background. Or they were never good at Tekken, and are freaked out by it now that other people are. In general, if they played most other fighting games that were not stated above, or Virtua Fighter, they'll run into much longer combos.
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#143retep_onePosted 11/10/2012 10:22:00 AM
BlackShinobi13 posted...
unceramonius posted...
As for side stepping hop kicks....hmmmm, ill try to incorporate that...but the problem is just how quick and spammable they are. And the fact they lead to bound.


Please work on your evasion, everything that you've said that you have a problem with in this entire topic basically boils down to the fact that you need to seriously work on your movement and spacing. Your problem with bounds and walls and damage all goes back to an initial hit that you are taking that can usually be avoided.

You are looking at the game as where you are and below you, instead of looking at it as where you are and above you. Where you now are hop kicks are a problem, itís the same for other people on your level, so if you have a talk with people on your level it will probably turn into very anti hop kick/ juggles conversation and the same is true for people on a skill level below you. But when you get serious tekken player in a room that talk goes away because bad hop kicks and launchers get you punched in the face and everyone in the conversation knows it.

It more of a social thing, you can say things like hop kicks are a serious problem because they are so quick and spammable on Gamefaqs, because there are people at a skill level where they will agree with you, but in couple of hours I am heading out to a Tekken tournament and if I said the same thing in that room everyone would look at me like I was a complete idiot. It's not that I don't know that there is a skill level where this stuff is a problem, itís just that I also know that once you get past that level these problems go away.

High schoolers get math work that the average elementary school kid couldn't even begin to understand, if you ask a first grader trigonometry is impossible, that doesn't mean it actually is impossible; in fact that same first grader will probably have no problem with it by the time they finish high school. Practice more, your problems arenít problems with Tekken's mechanics they are problems with being able to see your current skill level in context .


if you are referring to unceramonius, based on his posts (and not only in this thread) he doesnt have problems with being hit with juggles. he even says he is a good player with a high winning percantage. his problem is how the game is played itself...
thats a good explanation for players having difficulty in dealing with juggles though
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#144BlackShinobi13Posted 11/10/2012 11:58:42 AM
retep_one posted...
if you are referring to unceramonius, based on his posts (and not only in this thread) he doesnt have problems with being hit with juggles. he even says he is a good player with a high winning percantage. his problem is how the game is played itself...
thats a good explanation for players having difficulty in dealing with juggles though


Actually based on his posted I wouldn't say that at all,
Just in the last half of this topic hes said
- Hes blocking launchers repeatedly, but they eventually land and he gets comboed, without mentioning trying to dodge the launcher so he can punish
- that there isn't really anything you can do against hop kicks
- He can't position himself to get away from walls when hes cornered
- Hes getting hit be move as slow and reactable as King spinning jump kick

Regeardless of what someone says about their own skill level these are traits of a beginner level tekken player, who has issues with spacing and movement.
#145BlackShinobi13Posted 11/10/2012 12:53:29 PM
Here is the avoiding the puddle spacing video again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVhkZyfLjtA

notice how Aris says you can get hit with certain things like "random" hop kicks at point blank range, which is exactly why you shouldn't stay at that range.

Anyway I'm finally finished work and heading over to Bar Battles, its on the http://twitch.tv/8wayrun
for anyone interested, I have no clue when Tekken is on.
#146Azuma_NarooNPosted 11/10/2012 1:37:33 PM(edited)
From: frozen37flame | Posted: 11/10/2012 1:57:43 AM | #126
Azuma my post wasn't in response to yours. It was my response to unceramonius and also I agree with your points. Also I'm not saying that people who complain are people who just keep on losing or something like that. I'm just telling him that if he's getting frustrated and annoyed by the game to the point that he post his hatred nonstop than I suggest that he stop playing or find a way to play that won't stress him out to much. It's just illogical for me to see someone play a game in the way he hates so much.


My bad lol. You replied not long after me, so I thought it was towards me. My apologies for the confusion. Agreed with your points as well.

I still see some good in Tag 2, and unlike a lot of people who try to tier-whore or lament the state of their characters, I still have fun playing with DJ, Kaz and Anna despite how difficult it might be to perform well with them online due to lag and the execution needed for even the most basic of their combos. I can't wait until they unlock Angel and I wanna give "Original" Ogre a try as well.

edit: I also don't see why people always say that juggle damage has been scaled down over time. Well...thanks for stating the obvious. The only reason the lifebars were slightly increased, and why juggle damage was scaled down in Tag 2, is because of the fact that it's usually 2v2, and they want you to do Tag combos more often to maximize your damage output. That's just common sense really, and I find it redundant for people to point it out continuously. Just my 2 cents there, lol.

My main beef with the juggles themselves are the length of them, not the fact that I get caught in them. EVERY player will get caught in a juggle at some point, it's part of the game. I just hate how long they last, especially in this game since not only do you have bound, you have extended Tag Assault combos, balcony and floor breaks, and walls. It's possible to do a combo that incorporates all or most of these elements. Sure, it's fun when you're doing the combo, but when they get done on me, I'm usually sitting there thinking to myself "*sigh* just hurry up and finish this already".

Hopefully in T x SF and/or T7, they put less emphasis on extending the combos by an extra thirty seconds and focus on improving the core gameplay for once rather than just slightly tweaking it. It's kinda weird to me how the controls don't feel too different from Tekken Tag 1. There's an obvious difference in terms of the "feel" of course, but the base feel is still there, so it comes off feeling kind of archaic. I'm not suggesting that they completely axe the current movement physics and do some 8-way run style thing or anything, but just...something.

For T x SF, I expect a lot of new things, and if those things get well-received, they may get into T7. They're gonna have to do something, because I really doubt every SF character will have 100+ moves like most Tekken characters, when SF chars typically only have less than a dozen unique moves in their own games. I think a major facet of what will take a long time for T x SF is the fact that they have to adapt the SF characters into a Tekken-style environment. They will need a crapload of unique moves (no one will accept any clones), find a way to incorporate the projectiles in a way that makes sense, and make sure the Tekken characters aren't overpowered. More dev time will probably be spent on balance and fine-tuning than on anything else.
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#147skyraxPosted 11/11/2012 6:06:49 AM
Azuma_NarooN posted...
I also don't see why people always say that juggle damage has been scaled down over time. Well...thanks for stating the obvious. The only reason the lifebars were slightly increased, and why juggle damage was scaled down in Tag 2, is because of the fact that it's usually 2v2, and they want you to do Tag combos more often to maximize your damage output. That's just common sense really, and I find it redundant for people to point it out continuously. Just my 2 cents there, lol.

People keep talking about the incredible damage that juggles do, and how 2 juggles end a match or something along those lines. Because of scaled down damage that is almost never the case.

Maximizing damage output seems to run counter to giving people more health to withstand damage. If anything, they'd scale up damage for juggles and just make people fall faster. More damage, less hits.
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The Xbox isn't defined by its ability to moon jump. ~PaddyFinnLike
#148IngSlayerPosted 11/11/2012 6:17:46 AM(edited)
> Topic about bringing in a new mechanic
> Everyone says it's an abominable idea that will ruin the series and that there are already better options
> Everyone also questions the skill of the players that support the idea
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Sedix: Baffling Artist
#149frozen37flamePosted 11/11/2012 6:43:20 AM
No prob Azuma. ^_^

Anyway I just hope that they release an arcade version of T x SF cause that's the only way I'll be playing it. I've totally given up on playing online with fighting games. Good thing there are a lot of arcades here.
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TTT2 - Jun/Asuka,T6 - Asuka/Xiao, SSF4:AE- Dhalsim/Juri, UMvC3 - X23/Zero/Ammy, Blazblue - Noel
Time to practice and experiment with Jun and Asuka. I love TTT2
#150Violet_LeePosted 11/11/2012 8:46:59 AM
skyrax posted...
Azuma_NarooN posted...
I also don't see why people always say that juggle damage has been scaled down over time. Well...thanks for stating the obvious. The only reason the lifebars were slightly increased, and why juggle damage was scaled down in Tag 2, is because of the fact that it's usually 2v2, and they want you to do Tag combos more often to maximize your damage output. That's just common sense really, and I find it redundant for people to point it out continuously. Just my 2 cents there, lol.

People keep talking about the incredible damage that juggles do, and how 2 juggles end a match or something along those lines. Because of scaled down damage that is almost never the case.

Maximizing damage output seems to run counter to giving people more health to withstand damage. If anything, they'd scale up damage for juggles and just make people fall faster. More damage, less hits.


More damage, less hits = Less combo creativity = Going backwards from what the series has been evolving to. Every game is going for more compex combos, that give more freedom and are more diverse and varied. See UMVC3, Blazblue, Mortal Kombat 9, KOFXIII etc. These games all have long and varied combos.

Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive are all still like old school Tekken, where there are fewer hits and more damage in combos. Yet, Tekken is a more popular fighting game in the fighting game community than any of these other 3D games.

So, really, why would Tekken wanna do it? Because casual console players or online players want to have more fun while messing around with the game before throwing it out and playing the next new thing? Namco Bandai have their eyes on the Arcade scene, and they put in the game what Arcade players want. Arcade players like flashy combos, they like impressing their opponent and their viewers with skillful execution, expectators find it hype when someone actually manages to pull off awesome combos that use tag buffered launchers, walls, balcony breaks, tag assault all at the same time.

No one wants to see just players trading pokes and evading stuff or doing 5 hit combos most. That's exactly why Virtua Fighter, which is an incredibly technical game, doesn't get that much love from viewers... because people find it boring to watch. Western players who are spoonfed on Capcom games also find anything non-capcom or 3D boring to watch, but anyone else would find Tekken, and especially TTT2, a much more hype game to watch than any of the other 3D fighting games, just because of the variety, the longer combos, the tag stuff, the stage stuff etc. And that's why Tekken is such a huge success on asian arcades... because people look at it, they see the enormous roster and all the flashy stuff, pro players destroying other players hitting them non-stop in combos... it's very attractive,

New players start playing the game with the hopes of doing that absurd combo they saw someone do in the Arcades the other day. They want to have that superhuman feeling of power. Most new players, at least the ones which are drawn by the competitive aspect of the game (which is what happens for most arcade gamers), learn juggles before they learn any other fundamental of the game. They don't know anything about spacing or movement at the beginning, they just wanna land that devastating combo they've learned. It's a sort of knowledge that feels very empowering, but is actually easy to acquire without a lot of "experience".

At the beginning it feels like a shortcut to victory, but soon enough, they realize it's not reliable to depend that much on launchers, especially when someone win "out-fundamenting" them. So, believe it or not, the focus on combos in fighting games actually draw new players, or at least new players with the drive to win (which are the ones that are here to stay).