Harada needs to be brave and introduce

#151Violet_LeePosted 11/11/2012 10:12:23 AM
Marvel nowadays is one of the, if not THE most popular fighting game in the west when it comes to the western competitive scene. What's the recipe for success? Balance? Short combos? Fundamentals? Wrong.

It's the illusion of power that draws players into Marvel. Every character feels overpowered in one way or another, there is a lot of bulls**t everywhere: touch of death combos, x-factor, loops... people initially look at the game, and they think: "hey, everyone is playing this, and there is that death combo... so all I gotta do is learn the combo, play the high tier characters and I'll win!"

People like things that look like shortcuts for wins. But there's no shortcut for victory in any fighting game. They're just illusions, but they help getting players eager to win into the game. The mindset of "Learning and practicing a godlike combo = victory" feels comforting to new players... at least more comforting than the thought of having to actually play more and get more experience than someone who is already playing the game for years in order to win.

The reason why many players outside of the competitive circle don't get such mechanics, is because they play for different reasons. They got into the game for what they call "fun". They have notions of what the game should and shouldn't be in order to be more fun.

Most competitive gamers already have a estabilished mindset that "fun = winning". Some, already more evolved in that regard, see it as "fun = winning AND learning (aka getting better at winning by losing)". Everything surrounds the win. Everything else is just a means to getting to the win.

As an Arcade game, Tekken is aimed at that competitive mindset, and what people with that competitive mindset have to say about how the game should be. That's also why the games are so conservative when it comes to changes: people that are already winning because they have acquired experience don't want their experience to go to waste. Knowledge involed in gaming is, for the most part, arbitrary, and only serves the purpose of playing that game. The time you spend into mastering backdash cancel is only helpful for, well, playing Tekken and doing backdash cancel. The effort you put into that is good for nothing else. If they just remove such mechanic, that's a profound disrespect for competitive players, who put their time and effort into mastering a technique that is part of the series since... ever.

Juggles and bound, as they are right now, are the same thing. Sure, one thing is to change the optimal combos for each character, but throwing away the bound system, for example, means throwing away a lot of effort and experience on the part of players dedicated to that game. When the series first introduced the bound system, it was a NEW THING, that was ADDED ON TOP OF EXISTING FEATURES. If you were already good at juggling without bound, all you had to do was implement bounds on top of your prior knowledge, not just throw it away. Same with Tag Assault, for example.

The same applies for characters, and why they are not removed for the most part (and when they are, they usually come back). Investing a lot of time and effort into learning a character only to have it removed from the game is very frustrating for experienced players. It's just a lot of time of your life being turned completely pointless. If, for example, they remove a clone, it's not that big of a deal, because you can still play with its clone and most of your experience still applies and is helpful. But not if you have to play a completely different character.

In that regard, even though juggle breaker is a bad idea, it's still better than removing bound, or toning down the juggles, because at least it's a mechanic on top of existing mechanics, not just cutting things that are already in the game, and making the knowledge and experience related to them pointless.
#152KenGi1226Posted 11/11/2012 10:29:00 AM
IngSlayer posted...
> Topic about bringing in a new mechanic
> Everyone says it's an abominable idea that will ruin the series and that there are already better options
> Everyone also questions the skill of the players that support the idea


And you've brought nothing new to the topic. GG.
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#153236PPosted 11/11/2012 11:29:34 AM
Juggles are fine in theory, the risk reward is about balanced out, slightly in favour of launch spam. My only objections are:

- They take way too damn long
- The wall carry can be silly

I think more of the typical launchers (like df2 or hopkick) should just result in a knockback leading to a quick simple 2 hit combo for like 60 damage.
#154IngSlayerPosted 11/11/2012 12:18:48 PM(edited)
KenGi1226 posted...
IngSlayer posted...
> Topic about bringing in a new mechanic
> Everyone says it's an abominable idea that will ruin the series and that there are already better options
> Everyone also questions the skill of the players that support the idea


And you've brought nothing new to the topic. GG.


And this is worth pointing out because...?

To satisfy your elitist ego? Okay.
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#155unceramoniusPosted 11/11/2012 1:46:07 PM
Risk/reward with a hop kick? Please.........

Launchers should be not so slow that they are absolutely useless....but so enough, so that if blocked.....you will get launched yourself. Now it truly is risk/reward

Not hop kick....hop kick...hop kick...block...hop kick

A mere hopkick can nearly end the round. There is no risk in that, only reward for something so little. Block...spam that hop kick...maybe with a side step..win the round!

Rinse repeat
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#156236PPosted 11/11/2012 2:43:17 PM
if you block a hopkick, you get jabs and usually plus frames or knockdown, which lead to a free mix up or oki.

There are plenty of fast mids around 15f that don't launch, do chunky damage, and safe. Slower safe mids generally lead to juggles on counter or even +frames on block. Shall we get rid of those too?

Don't get me wrong, hopkicks are still very good moves, and I have an issue with so many characters having these generically strong moves, like df2. Lazy way of balancing,but that's a different issue.

Tekken is a game where random ducking and low jabs can be punished pretty heavily. I had my gripes with hopkicks when they were introduced in T5 too, but now they make sense in the grand scheme of things, especially with buffed ground damage and juggle scaling.
#157Azuma_NarooNPosted 11/11/2012 7:21:14 PM
So a few of you suggest that the super-long combos attract new players because they look flashy? Why then, do I always see and hear so many people say that the reason they gave up on the game is because they felt that the combos were too long and damaging? Rhetorical question btw, as I already know the answer.

Anyone who quits that fast is a casual (not the lame-ass slag-off term "casual", but just a casual fightan gaem player). Even with Fight Lab, people are still ragequitting the series. A lot of people rent the game, and rather than decide to fully purchase it, they say "meh, I'll move on to something else."

Virtua Fighter might be boring to watch, but to me, it's also boring to play. When it comes to 2D fighters, the only ones I can even recall ever liking are SFA3 and the SFIII series. Soulcalibur is fun to me, but my fav. is 2 and I didn't care for III or IV, but V was decent from what little of it I played. Tekken has been with me for well over a decade, so I keep coming back from blind loyalty or something.

I agree that the flashiness attracts players, but some pr0 players have complained about bound, rage, long combos, etc. from time to time. There's no such thing as a perfect fighter, let alone a perfect game period. There's always gonna be groups of people who don't like certain aspects of a game, even at the highest levels of play. But just because they might not like it, or even hate it, doesn't mean they'll quit playing the game -- they're merely putting up with it.

I'm outspoken of my dislike of bound and rage and whatnot, but that doesn't mean I'm about to go back to T6. As of Tag 2, there is no reason whatsoever for me to play T6 again. In fact, I'll say it's safe to say that I'll never touch that game again. Others probably feel the same way.
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#158Violet_LeePosted 11/11/2012 8:42:52 PM
236P posted...
Juggles are fine in theory, the risk reward is about balanced out, slightly in favour of launch spam. My only objections are:

- They take way too damn long
- The wall carry can be silly

I think more of the typical launchers (like df2 or hopkick) should just result in a knockback leading to a quick simple 2 hit combo for like 60 damage.


If they just did that, such launchers would be beyond pointless. Most characters have NCs or even single hit moves that deal almost 60 and come out sometimes even faster than hopkick or generic df+2, and have better range. Why risk throwing out something that is punishable, only hits at point blank range, is linear and sidestepable etc... if you can only get 60 damage with it at most? There are better options.

Unless you nerf everything else, until the point at which people will only jab each other to death.
#159236PPosted 11/13/2012 6:08:29 AM
Gotta say I disagree. I think it's a problem when with a huge variety of characters, one of their go to moves is generic df2 or hopkick. It's a generic and lazy way of balancing.

Let's take Lee for example, and let's say his uf+4 and df+2 resulted in a short quick stun leading to 60ish damage. Comparable meaty damage on nh mids might be f+2,1 which is slower I think and leads to 40 something, but is hit comfirmable and wall splats. Or ff+3 which is slower and weaker still but has range. Blazing kick would be your only viable natural mid launcher, and that makes sense since it's pretty slow and requires a good read.

df+2 and uf+4 would still have their uses, primarily as i15 block and whiff punishers (or in hopkick case low crush and mix-up tool but punishable), they just wouldn't be the generic go to mid of choice. If anything it would diversify move selection.
#160Pirate_DuckPosted 11/13/2012 6:25:58 AM
236P posted...
Gotta say I disagree. I think it's a problem when with a huge variety of characters, one of their go to moves is generic df2 or hopkick. It's a generic and lazy way of balancing.

Let's take Lee for example, and let's say his uf+4 and df+2 resulted in a short quick stun leading to 60ish damage. Comparable meaty damage on nh mids might be f+2,1 which is slower I think and leads to 40 something, but is hit comfirmable and wall splats. Or ff+3 which is slower and weaker still but has range. Blazing kick would be your only viable natural mid launcher, and that makes sense since it's pretty slow and requires a good read.

df+2 and uf+4 would still have their uses, primarily as i15 block and whiff punishers (or in hopkick case low crush and mix-up tool but punishable), they just wouldn't be the generic go to mid of choice. If anything it would diversify move selection.


Baek would be totally ****ed without a proper launching d/f+2, so I'd have to give a HELL NO to this idea.
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