Harada needs to be brave and introduce

#31Pirate_DuckPosted 11/8/2012 3:02:28 AM
Brave? How is caving in to the demands of ignorant newbs "brave"?
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#32BlackShinobi13Posted 11/8/2012 3:04:38 AM
Tsunade11 posted...
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My problem with the argument isn't the argument, its that no one I've ever heard make the argument understands the game well enough to know what they are asking for. No one ever brings a reasonable logic based argument to why there shouldn't be juggles and all of the points they keep bringing up are full of holes that they never actually address, but I'll give you a chance to do that now if you'd like to try.

1) It will make people use their full arsenal of moves.
People think this makes them seem like better or more educated players, but its actually the exact opposite. The reason you see a smaller more concentrated move list from better players than people who don't know how to play is because so many moves on each characters move list are bad options. They aren't going unused because of lack of creativity they are going unused because you get killed for using them. Telling people to use their characters full arsenal of attacks is telling them to intentionally put more punishable moves into their game.

2) Juggles look repetitive or boring.
Optimal combos for certain situation exist in every fighting game; DEAL WITH IT. There is always going to be a combo that does maximum damage in a situation or leaves you in the best overall situation. If I have a juggle, that takes 50% damage and one that takes 25% in the same situation with no other advantage I'm not going to do the 25% combo sometimes just to mix things up I'm going to do the 50% combo every time. You said that you use juggles, Do you ever launch someone then hit them with one jab and intentionally let them drop, probably not, why do I know that because only an idiot would give up free guaranteed damage. No matter what the game is there is always going to be a best combo that you can use and that's the combo that you SHOULD be using even if you have to use it 2-5 times every single round. If its boring for you to watch it then stop getting hit by it, or stop playing fighting games.

Combo breakng mechanics DO NOT favor weaker players.
Combo breaking mechanics help weaker players by giving them one more chance not to get perfected, but overall they help the better player much more than the weaker player. Combo breaking mechanics add a whole new layer of risk reward and resource management to a fighting game, to use them to their fullest you have to study when it is best to use and not use it, now who do you think is going to actually do that? The guy who put in the time to learn his character's juggles or the person who didn't and spent that time complaining about getting juggled. People who want to put the time in are going to put the time in and people who don't want to now still aren't. What you'll end up with is that advanced player will develop a tekken version of burst baiting to use on unskilled players, while gaining a combo breaker that unskilled players don't know how to bait.

I'll say this again for anyone who didn't get it the first time; I've played games with combo breaking mechanics competitively before people and asking for a juggle escape in Tekken annoy me so much because they are asking for something that will actually lower their win percentage, and they don't even understand enough about fighting games to realize that. If the most someone can mentally process is "I'm losing to juggles, but if there were no juggles I would win" then their thought process it too low level to be taken seriously in this type of conversation.

If you can give serious logical reasons why people
1) Should use intentionally unsafe moves to add variety
2) Shouldn't do optimal damage
3) Should continue to fight for something that will lower their own win percentage
then please do so.
#33werewolfgoldPosted 11/8/2012 3:32:54 AM
For the record, I don't think that a juggle breaker should be added. Maybe just make it so you can't b+2~f 6 times over and actually have it land in a juggle combo. But, that's about it.

Of course, people should never intentionally use unsafe moves. But, I think it's then the devs' task to make some moves less useless. Variety'll happen that way. It's super-hard for this game because not only are people's move lists ridiculous, some things are unintended. But, there ideally shouldn't be any "why is that move even in the list?" moves.

I suppose it would be the same thing for damage output. If there were a few ways to get optimal damage in your juggle...instant variety.
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#34unceramoniusPosted 11/8/2012 3:44:46 AM
Shinobi.....i dont think any one is saying that players should play in a way that will undermine their win percentage.

The problem here...is how tekken has gone form a game where juggles existed....to a game where juggles are the absolute focal point now. If this was not the case, then why is every match a bait/launch fest?

Yes...this :tactic" is the best way to win....the damage is absurd....the lag makes block useless at times.

Want a good k/d in cod? Sit in a corner. Want a good tekken win percentage? Play like a wimp....the 2 go hand in hand.

Nobody is saying throw out unsafe moves.....but to be able to take off 3/4 quarters of your opponents health, because you landed a hop kick is just ridiculous. Why cant launchers be like unblockable attacks? Where there is actually a risk in using it.

As it is now, you can hit me 3 times, and i can keep trying u/f with lili.....you can block it all you want, but nobody wins a match perfect. Eventually ill hit it and the match is over. I will then juggle you, bound you, tag assault....then throw in one or two, d/b 4...and a d3. Match over.

My win percentage is 70%, and i have a massive problem with this games mechanics. I have to play this wimp way too...or i will lose. That is not good design.

Unsafe launchers....and no rage.....will actually concentrate more on the fight. Not....block...block...block....hmmm nah not yey...block...block...block....ok LAUNCH.
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#35angelskynianPosted 11/8/2012 4:09:47 AM
Tekken always has and always been an arcade game, it does not need to change just because a lot of players have terrible online
experience.

If you guys are still adamant that Tekken needs to change then just ask Harada to make a patch for Tekken consoles that have all the features you want remove walls, bounds, launchers and all those juggles, add juggle breakers. Just as long as the patch is optional
and let's see how many will actually update their game to play a game that no longer resembles what Tekken is.
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#36Tsunade11(Topic Creator)Posted 11/8/2012 4:12:01 AM
BlackShinobi13 posted...
Tsunade11 posted...
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I'll say this again for anyone who didn't get it the first time; I've played games with combo breaking mechanics competitively before people and asking for a juggle escape in Tekken annoy me so much because they are asking for something that will actually lower their win percentage, and they don't even understand enough about fighting games to realize that. If the most someone can mentally process is "I'm losing to juggles, but if there were no juggles I would win" then their thought process it too low level to be taken seriously in this type of conversation.

If you can give serious logical reasons why people
1) Should use intentionally unsafe moves to add variety
2) Shouldn't do optimal damage
3) Should continue to fight for something that will lower their own win percentage
then please do so.


Black shinobi I fully am aware that juggle breakers will have a big impact on my game play because as I mentioned before I also frequently juggle players as elected punishers and counters, I've reached a stage where I feel it will be in the interests of the series if a juggle, not combos because we have many options to deal with ground combos, it's just juggles that have reached a stage where they are abused and they're making gameplay become monotonous when that is all people have to offer.

Lets take an example I would love to use a 17 frame heinously unsafe (-10)on block move but because I know the consequences of my actions I do not, so I am playing a system that encourages players to play it safe sticking to 9 frame jabs and having and ideal scenario of baiting a launch and unleashing 10 hit plus juggles that take at least 80% damage.

however im playing in an environment that is not perfect whether it is lag or a disruption of play, there is manipulation and abuse by some players.

I've also frequently played against people who elect to stand back and be patient, whilst I respect that some people prefer playing in this way, however, I would hate for the overall gameplay to be heading in this direction. People who take risks do not get rewarded proportional to those relying on caution.

Furthermore, I am a big supporter of bounds but I do not support 12+ hit aerial juggles that leave opponents helpless to the extent they might as just put down their joysticks for the round because that the end of that, a Lars player has me up in the air we all know it's over now wait till the next round.

As I mentioned before I love tekken and am an avid player, I just think that progressing aerial combat by giving players more options, we have reversal, we techs, we have parries, we have rolls all these options available why not juggle breakers, it's about time.

I am fully aware that juggles breakers will affect my win/gameplay but I welcome the challenge, it's about time because it doesnt take much skill to pull off a crippling juggle. If this is incorporated, which i doubt then it'll be a game changer.
#37unceramoniusPosted 11/8/2012 4:18:21 AM
angel your comment is hypocritical

tekken has changed a lot . I dont remember bounds, walls, tag assaults being in tekken 5 mmm? Or rage either
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Insanity leads to chaos then to solitude, the fruitless effort of adding meaning to what is meaningless!!!
#38werewolfgoldPosted 11/8/2012 4:22:47 AM
From: unceramonius | #037
angel your comment is hypocritical

tekken has changed a lot . I dont remember bounds, walls, tag assaults being in tekken 5 mmm? Or rage either

I suggest editing this...
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The full moon is beautiful, don't you think? Have you ever had the chance to look at it?
#39LazyBroPosted 11/8/2012 4:26:16 AM
Tekken 5 had walls.
#40retep_onePosted 11/8/2012 4:29:16 AM
Shinobi is actually correct. if your thought level is actually just juggles in TTT2 whether you win or lose you cant be taken seriously. TTT2 is more than juggles i could say a lot are just having terrible exp bec of this impression.

gameplay has evolved since the very 1st Tekken so obviously strategies and the like change. if youre stuck with the old tekken metagame or failed to adapt and accept that fact then either go back to the old games or hope the next tekken wont have all the things you think make TTT2 look bad. TTT2 is what it is and if you are complaining and pissed abt how the game is played then you just have to deal with it

angelskynian posted...
If you guys are still adamant that Tekken needs to change then just ask Harada to make a patch for Tekken consoles that have all the features you want remove walls, bounds, launchers and all those juggles, add juggle breakers. Just as long as the patch is optional and let's see how many will actually update their game to play a game that no longer resembles what Tekken is.


this^
tekken 5 also had walls. walls were introduced in tekken 4. no bounds, rage, TAs in tekken 5 but there were walls
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