Z2-2 second playthrough revival

#1MJEmirzianPosted 8/24/2012 11:12:51 PM(edited)
I'm restarting my 2nd Z2-2 playthrough using the same conditions as the first playthrough, except I'll be going for the alternate ending route instead of the normal one. I'm trying to get it done before 2nd OG is out. To improve my strats I've been using counterattacks, MAP attacks, support attacks, better deployment/positioning, better level up priorities, and bringing higher MOV pilots like Alleluia and Shin instead of Dai-Guard and Faye. So far I think I'm making some good improvements.

The two early-mid game pilots I most overlooked on my first playthrough are Shin and Alleluia. Alleluia isn't as good at dodging as Kamiyu or Gainer, but his high movement makes him great at covering a lot of terrain and counterattacking distant enemies. Alleluia has been solely responsible for several turn count reductions in my 2nd playthrough thanks to his high movement + good dodging and solid counterattacking. He can also be paired with Lockon, Setsuna, and Tieria, all four of which share affinity bonuses with one another. I'm happy enough with his performance to bump him up to high-mid tier on the tier list based on my playthrough conditions.

Shin is also not the best at dodging, but he has good defensive abilities and a spammable 4200 dmg attack which is still a lot for the early game. I don't think he's quite good enough to get out of mid tier, but he's still a solid early-mid game pick that I overlooked on my 1st playthrough. Shin seems like the pilot Alto wants to be - high MOV, durable, lots of shields/armor, not the best dodger but can take a couple hits to make up for it.

I still don't understand Alto's appeal. He's not as durable as Shin, doesn't seem as good at dodging, no Accel for low turn counts, not any better counterattack damage, etc. I realize he fits in mid tier as a passable early/mid game dodger, but even in the early game I can't seem to make room for him. There are just too many other pilots that are better even at that point in the game.

I probably used Dai-Guard too much on my first playthrough. I think I was blinded by the fact that it's a multipilot robot with a high damage attack, despite its poor movement, poor terrain ratings, and lack of long range attacks. I'm not sure why I took Faye at all on my first early game playthrough. I paid too much attention to the highest damage attack instead of other more important stats.

None of this changes the late/end game strats which revolve mostly around support seishins, awaken, hard hitting super attacks, and MAP attacks.

Check out the video walkthrough and playthrough conditions at this Youtube playlist. All scenarios with improved turn counts have been re-recorded and uploaded, so everything from scenario 4 to 20.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL20BF11F5EF68F740

2nd Playthrough turn counts. Improvents from 1st playthrough shown in parentheses.

P1 : 2 (0)
P2 : 5 (0)
P3 : 2 (0)

S1 : 4 (0)
S2 : 5 (0)
S3 : 3 (0)

Kummen Route
S4d : 4 (0)
S5d : 5 (0)
S6d : 6 (-1)
S7d : 4 (-1)

Middle East/Kummen Combined Route
S8b : 5 (-1)
S9b : 5 (-2)
S10b: 4 (-1)
S11b: 4 (-1)
S12b: 4 (-1)
S13b: 4 (-1)
S14b: 3 (-1)

S15 : 5 (-1)
S16 : 3 (-2)
S17 : 2 (-2)
S18 : 2 (-1)
S19 : 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOJFgsMzAs
S20 : 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7nhDroF-3w
#2MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/24/2012 11:11:43 PM
Descriptions for scenario 19 and 20:

第19話: それぞれの戦場
Scenario 19: Each Other's Battlefield
SR Point: Defeat all enemies, then defeat Zechs by Turn 3's player phase.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5.

After defeating the boss and getting the SP, reinforcements appear at 9 o clock, then at 3 o clock on the next turn.

Clearing this in 4 turns takes precise MAP placement, lots of counterattacks, and splitting up the party efficiently. I used the Macross Bship to MAP the west side. Although probably not necessary, it takes a lot of stress off that side of the map. Another thing I could have tried to do was kill/counterkill the first wave of enemies by turn 2, but I figured it might get messy with the west reinforcement bosses and grunts going wild on enemy turn.

I used the other 3 MAPs (Geass Bship, Hiiro, and Zero) for the east side, which has a ton of enemies that must be killed in 1 turn. Crowe's 10 SP Attune is spammed liberally to keep everyone's accuracy up, while lots of Luck and Cheer is passed around to get my supers to lv 32+. Enemy turn 4 is where it might get hairy if you haven't weakened enough enemies to the point where they can be counterkilled, as you need to counterkill quite a few of them on the east side.

第20話: 白と黒と
Scenario 20: Black and White
SR Point: Defeat all enemies, then Pearlfang by Turn 6. (Retreats at 10000 HP)
5 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Send some fast moving, heavy hitting tanks and Zero NW. Send some more heavy hitters NE towards the 3 bosses. Drop Zero's MAP attack to clear out weakened grunts on turn 4. I made a couple mistakes in this vid but still squeaked out 4 turns. Could have played it a bit better, positioning Zero one tile north, getting the blue boss to move SE instead of SW, moving Takeru closer, etc. The bosses each have a preferred target, so you can use that to your advantage to make them go where you want. Marilyn will chase after and target Crowe, for example.
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#3MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/25/2012 1:44:35 PM
Space Route!

第21話: 伝説の歌声
Scenario 21b: Legendary Voice
SR Point: Destroy all Vajra by Turn 3 and prevent Macross Quarter from receiving any damage.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. The initial grunts move then attack, so it's best to set up a strong counterattack wall. After getting the skill point, a bunch of grunts show up along the north side of the map. The trickiest part is trying to get in as many counterattacks as possible on turn 1. I'm kind of iffy on whether it's possible to 3 turn this. I'm thinking no mostly because the boss takes quite a beating and most of my units are out of SP/EN and low on HP by turn 4.




第22話: ランカ・アタック
Scenario 22b: Ranka Attack
SR Point: Destroy 50 or more Vajras and prevent Kanaria (Koneig Monster) from receiving any damage by Turn 5.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Barely squeaked by with 4 turns here. Once you get the SP, more enemies show up at 8 o clock and 3 o clock. I had to set up a pretty solid counterattack wall to get the SP quickly, then split my team north and SW to deal with the further reinforcements. I sent Basara SW to demoralize the enemy bships, as his attack range isn't far enough to reliably counterkill the NE reinforcements during enemy turn. This is yet another scenario that shows how much more difficult the real route is vs super route.
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#4Storm20191Posted 8/25/2012 1:46:27 PM
MJEmirzian posted...
Space Route!

第21話: 伝説の歌声
Scenario 21b: Legendary Voice
SR Point: Destroy all Vajra by Turn 3 and prevent Macross Quarter from receiving any damage.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. The initial grunts move then attack, so it's best to set up a strong counterattack wall. After getting the skill point, a bunch of grunts show up along the north side of the map. The trickiest part is trying to get in as many counterattacks as possible on turn 1. I'm kind of iffy on whether it's possible to 3 turn this. I'm thinking no mostly because the boss takes quite a beating and most of my units are out of SP/EN and low on HP by turn 4.




第22話: ランカ・アタック
Scenario 22b: Ranka Attack
SR Point: Destroy 50 or more Vajras and prevent Kanaria (Koneig Monster) from receiving any damage by Turn 5.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Barely squeaked by with 4 turns here. Once you get the SP, more enemies show up at 8 o clock and 3 o clock. I had to set up a pretty solid counterattack wall to get the SP quickly, then split my team north and SW to deal with the further reinforcements. I sent Basara SW to demoralize the enemy bships, as his attack range isn't far enough to reliably counterkill the NE reinforcements during enemy turn. This is yet another scenario that shows how much more difficult the real route is vs super route.


Are you in normal mode or hard mode?
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#5MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/26/2012 8:17:08 AM
第23話: 悲しみのカトル
Scenario 23b: Grief Stricken Quatre
SR Point: Defeat all enemies, then defeat Wing Gundam Zero by Turn 6.
5 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Shaved off a turn by using Kira's MAP and sending supers up to beat up the boss ASAP. This was a much cleaner attempt than my first playthrough attempt where I barely finished off Quatre on 6 EP. In this attempt I finish Quatre off at the end of 5 PP, with room for an extra counterhit on him on EP 5.

There might be a bit of luck involved in 5 turning this, mostly because Troyes, Hiiro, and Quatre attacking one another might end up missing, etc. I was able to take out Quatre with only one of Troyes/Hiiro's attacks hitting Quatre in the video afaik, so it's not too bad. Also forgot to use Aquarion's support attacks which would have downed him even more reliably than in the vid. This is yet another scenario that shows how much more difficult the real route is vs super route.



第24話: ゼロと呼ばれたG
Scenario 24b: The Gundam They Call Zero
SR Point: Defeat 60 or more enemies by end of Turn 6.
7 turns

Defeat Duo with Setsuna ASAP so you have more time to get the SP. I put a Tuna Buns and Space Adaptor on her then built up her morale to spam her best attack on him and defeat him on 2 PP. This gives you 4 turns to get the SP instead of 3, making it much easier to obtain. Kira's MAP attack is very useful for getting the SP. Combine that with Macross Bship MAP attacks and some good counterattack tanks and the SP is not far out of reach. I don't think there's any way to finish the scenario faster than 7 turns so I didn't re-record my 2nd attempt.

It's worth getting the Aux GN Drive in this scenario as it grants +100 EN. To get it, move Duo 6 tiles south from the NE corner.



Storm, I'm playing on hard mode. Here's the full list of my playthrough conditions: No carryover bonus, no upgrades/pp, low turn counts, no allied units destroyed, no quickload spamming for low chances to hit or dodge or other random events. Parts and intermission training are allowed.
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#6Storm20191Posted 8/26/2012 8:32:34 AM
MJEmirzian posted...
第23話: 悲しみのカトル
Scenario 23b: Grief Stricken Quatre
SR Point: Defeat all enemies, then defeat Wing Gundam Zero by Turn 6.
5 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Shaved off a turn by using Kira's MAP and sending supers up to beat up the boss ASAP. This was a much cleaner attempt than my first playthrough attempt where I barely finished off Quatre on 6 EP. In this attempt I finish Quatre off at the end of 5 PP, with room for an extra counterhit on him on EP 5.

There might be a bit of luck involved in 5 turning this, mostly because Troyes, Hiiro, and Quatre attacking one another might end up missing, etc. I was able to take out Quatre with only one of Troyes/Hiiro's attacks hitting Quatre in the video afaik, so it's not too bad. Also forgot to use Aquarion's support attacks which would have downed him even more reliably than in the vid. This is yet another scenario that shows how much more difficult the real route is vs super route.



第24話: ゼロと呼ばれたG
Scenario 24b: The Gundam They Call Zero
SR Point: Defeat 60 or more enemies by end of Turn 6.
7 turns

Defeat Duo with Setsuna ASAP so you have more time to get the SP. I put a Tuna Buns and Space Adaptor on her then built up her morale to spam her best attack on him and defeat him on 2 PP. This gives you 4 turns to get the SP instead of 3, making it much easier to obtain. Kira's MAP attack is very useful for getting the SP. Combine that with Macross Bship MAP attacks and some good counterattack tanks and the SP is not far out of reach. I don't think there's any way to finish the scenario faster than 7 turns so I didn't re-record my 2nd attempt.

It's worth getting the Aux GN Drive in this scenario as it grants +100 EN. To get it, move Duo 6 tiles south from the NE corner.



Storm, I'm playing on hard mode. Here's the full list of my playthrough conditions: No carryover bonus, no upgrades/pp, low turn counts, no allied units destroyed, no quickload spamming for low chances to hit or dodge or other random events. Parts and intermission training are allowed.


Nice! Good luck man.
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I'm better than all of you because I am.None of you are not even close compared to me.I am greatness.I am legendary.
#7MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/28/2012 3:29:03 PM
Thanks. I haven't trimmed and encoded the videos yet because I feel like playing right now. I'll get to them later.

Scenario 24b: The Gundam They Call Zero
SR Point: Defeat 60 or more enemies by end of Turn 6.
7 turns

Defeat Duo with Setsuna ASAP so you have more time to get the SP. I put a Tuna Buns and Space Adaptor on her then built up her morale to spam her best attack on him and defeat him on 2 PP. This gives you 4 turns to get the SP instead of 3, making it much easier to obtain. Kira's MAP attack is very useful for getting the SP. Combine that with Macross Bship MAP attacks and some good counterattack tanks and the SP is not far out of reach. I don't think there's any way to finish the scenario faster than 7 turns so I didn't re-record my 2nd attempt.

It's worth getting the Aux GN Drive in this scenario as it grants +100 EN. To get it, move Duo 6 tiles south from the NE corner. (7 tiles if counting the NE corner tile)



Scenario 25: Neverending Promise
SR Point: Defeat all ADAMON, then defeat Pearlnail. Pearlnail will retreat in Turn 5 or when its HP falls below 10000.
5 turns

Cleared in 5 turns instead of 6. This scenario marks the transition from the mid to the late game - you start getting more exhaust seishins, Zero learns confuse seishin, you have lots of powerful supers, more seishins to throw around, you have less room for real pilots like Shin, etc.

Strategy isn't too complicated, move south and mow everything down using standard tactics. MAP attacks aren't as important as strong single target attacks in this scenario. Both bosses prefer to target Crowe. Hitting the 2nd boss gives good XP since he's lv 75. Both bosses are very high level so it's a good chance to boost two of your robots. I chose Zwei and Shin Getter, as Zwei learned 2x Exhaust while Shin Getter got a quick boost up to lv 41-42.

I'm pretty happy with Schwarz so far. 8 MOV + Accel, decent HP/Armor that can be buffed with extra HP/Armor parts lying around. Support attack, 2-4 range 4500 DMG with 0 morale. He's kind of like a second Alleluia - not the best at tanking or DPS, but his extremely high MOV makes him valuable for cutting down turn counts. I've moved him up to mid tier from low tier.


Scenario 26: The Fall into Netherworld
SR Point: Defeat all Kedora and Insalaum enemies, then defeat Abdora U6 by Turn 3 and prevent either side from defeating any enemy units.
3 turns

Another stage I couldn't clear faster on 2nd playthrough. I did better than before, but I'm really not sure how I'd 2 turn it.



Scenario 27: Zero VS Zero
SR Point: Defeat all A-Laws units and clear the map within 4 Turns of their appearance.
4 turns

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. Another scenario to get some Zero points for the IF route. Since I've already got 4 points, I can shoot down Wufei and still get 5 points. Earliest I can get the A-Laws to appear is 2 PP. I cleared this scenario a turn faster mostly by positioning the Macross Bship for a good MAP, and partly through better countering. I was also ready to send my supers NE to deal with the extra boss that appears after defeating Hiiro.



Scenario 28: Messenger from the Darkness
SR Point: Have the NPC Black Ox defeat 3 or more enemies.
3 turns

Replayed in 3 turns instead of 4. Defeating some grunts causes Black Ox to appear, defeating more grunts causes reinforcements to show up along the north side of the map. Defeating Black Ox causes it to move next to Tetsujin as an allied NPC, where it needs to get 3 kills for the SP. Defeating the north reinforcement boss (36k HP) ends the scenario. I didn't get the SP on turn 2 so I had to get it on 3 EP then counterkill the boss to end the scenario.
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#8MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/30/2012 3:45:48 PM
Scenario 29: Warriors' Cry
SR Point: Clear the stage by Turn 4.
3 turns

Replayed in 3 turns instead of 4. After defeating enough enemies or on 2PP, Hiiro appears. After defeating Epyon, Hiiro gets into the Wing Zero and more reinforcements appear along the west side of the map. Getting 3 turns is mainly a matter of strong counters and well placed MAPs. I took Crowe for extra Attune support so my supers could spam morale, Basara for some more morale boosting, and put +10 and +5 initial morale parts on Zero. Forgot to put any parts on Chirico.. really should have though because enemies just love targeting him.


Scenario 30: Breakthrough Point
SR Point: Defeat all enemies except Rook ADAMON and fulfill the Victory Condition by Turn 3.

Replayed in 4 turns instead of 5. After meeting the victory conditions, more grunts appear along the north side of the map along with two lv 50-60 bosses. That means another opportunity to power level one of your pilot/robots. I went with Gravion Zwei and Shin Getter. Hitting the bosses is a good source of XP especially with added Luck. If you're going onto the real route it's a good idea to get Hiiro to lv 44 and learn Vigor. 4 turning this requires a lot of DPS to take down the high HP bosses. MAP attacks are somewhat useful but not too much because it's a couple high HP grunts rather than a lot of low HP grunts. No clue why I took so long playing the stage, must have been really tired.


Scenario 31: The Unbreakable
SR Point: Defeat 20 enemies and fulfill the Victory Condition by Turn 3.
Victory Conditon: Deal 30,000+ damage to Diamund.
3 turns

Replayed in 3 turns instead of 4. If you defeat all 18 of the weaker grunts and the 2 floating white ships, you only need to take out 2 of the stronger grunts to meet the SP condition. After that all you need to do is gang up on the lv 75 boss while getting some decent XP. I gave the kill to Gravion Zwei which got it to lv 59. I also tried to get Sayaka up a few levels so that she learns 2x Enable very soon.

I'm currently at 134 turns / 31 scenarios, 27 turns less than 1st playthrough. I'm looking forward to the IF route since I've never played those scenarios before and it's reportedly more difficult than the normal route.

Youtube links to the updated 2nd playthrough videos:

P1 : 2 (0)
P2 : 5 (0)
P3 : 2 (0)

S1 : 4 (0)
S2 : 5 (0)
S3 : 3 (0)

Kummen Route
S4d : 4 (0)
S5d : 5 (0)
S6d : 6 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsMvkJqFS50
S7d : 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMWH7RuNU-k

Middle East/Kummen Combined Route
S8b : 5 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn7R_VQZtg0
S9b : 5 (-2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWyMwEgDr5U
S10b: 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMyoVtXuJk
S11b: 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUvmbKizrmQ
S12b: 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anqYg29saLY
S13b: 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpP7ZzirNC8
S14b: 3 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUC8PTKTAJU

S15 : 5 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8gvyzP4pd0
S16 : 3 (-2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BW9MpgBLoE
S17 : 2 (-2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQlLzRK4CHY
S18 : 2 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP52n8boKa4
S19 : 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOJFgsMzAs
S20 : 4 (-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7nhDroF-3w


Space #2 Route
S21b: 4 (-1) http://youtu.be/0ykEskj6aog
S22b: 4 (-1) http://youtu.be/C1dYjX3FipM
S23b: 5 (-1) http://youtu.be/-WPWX8ClOl0
S24b: 7 (0)

S25 : 5 (-1) http://youtu.be/V3PCoYly4bE
S26 : 3 (0)
S27 : 4 (-1) http://youtu.be/3qlX6pgqN_g
S28 : 3 (-1) http://youtu.be/4PnK47olAQI
S29 : 3 (-1) http://youtu.be/rdbrmLMGWxU
S30 : 4 (-1) http://youtu.be/EIXLj02q_Qw
S31 : 3 (-1) http://youtu.be/4DHJx-gpufA
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#9Sir FuzziPosted 8/31/2012 6:56:16 AM
I can't put into words how much I respect your ability to do this. You inspire me to give it a shot on my next runthrough but I have too much fun watching my beautifully hand-picked army just trounce everything. Mmm, hand-picked army trouncefest. Perhaps next run...

Has your tier list shifted at all due to your playstyle adaptations aside from Allelujah?

Alto, in a regular game, is about as good as an option gets from Macross Frontier (unless you Ozma+Basara, but that's for another discussion and Ozma's availability is utter trash)-- Alto's pull is the Durandal he scores near the end of the game. What makes him even worse for your run is that while he gets (IIRC) 5 missions' runtime with the Durandal in the normal route, the alternate route by which I assume you mean the secret one available after getting Zero points or subsequent playthroughs only offers him 2 1/2 (I believe he gets it on the latter half of 58), which places it at more or less the worst availability for an upgrade in the game. Otherwise, if I'm not mistaken, he gets saddled up with his Armored Pack-- not quite good enough to make him move around at all.

I know it's prooobably irrelevant given his terrible availability, but since you're on a second playthrough, Ozma (he's the valkyrie pilot in the grey-ish one with the weird-looking head, has a yellow-printed armored pack) might have his Ace bonus-- specifically, double effect from Basara's songs. This does, indeed, stack with Basara's Hot Blood and as Basara's songs are a static value, this means the 'no upgrade' part of your challenge has no bearing on the fact that this dumps some serious stats on him. If I'm remembering this right, it's 60 melee/ranged/evade/accuracy, 120 defense/skill. I might be wrong there, though the substantial stat boosts might make him a fair endgame replacement for something else that normally snipes. Being ammo-based might lend some favour to him as he's less likely to bunk out of stronger attack options earlier. Again, you may be aware of this-- but I figure you probably didn't bother with many late-game showers last run, where their aces probably wouldn't be a hangup this time around.

Other than that, I'm curious to know what other units you've shelved/lowered on the tier list, and which you've brought in/raised on the tier list. When all is said and done and you've confirmed a final roster, maybe an updated list would be in order? I might use it as a frame of reference if I give a no-upgrades run a shot, though it goes without saying most of my pilots would be fully Aced by then with the exception of some of the less-impressive support pilots.
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#10MJEmirzian(Topic Creator)Posted 8/31/2012 11:59:12 AM
Ty, if you ever start a playthrough log I'd be glad to read it. Just make sure you list your playthrough conditions.

I moved Schwarz up to mid tier, as he's very useful in the early-mid game for the same reasons as Alleluia. I moved the Geass Bship up to mid tier thanks to its MAP attack. Might move Katoru (the Gundam W tank pilot) up to mid because he's really useful in real route splits. I didn't find Duo as useful this time around, thinking of moving him down to mid.

I'm considering dropping Garrard. The Gundam X's 4 turn charge time is like an eternity on most scenarios. I'd love to hear some useful applications of the Gundam X. I might end up not deploying it at all. I also haven't deployed Dai-Guard once and I'm not sure of any situation it'd be worth deploying it. Any suggestions?

By the endgame, I usually don't take any pilots that don't have the Awaken seishin. Even supers like God Sigma get left out for reals with Awaken like Amuro or Chirico who can kill multiple grunts in a single turn. Isn't the Durandal a secret unit that requires him to be an ace? I don't know the stats on it but I'm doubting it's worth the effort.

While this is my 2nd playthrough, it's a new game, not a new game+. My kill counts are just as low as the first time around, sorry. I don't think Ozma will be getting his ace bonus, but he still might be worth deploying for his P MAP. I'm pretty sure I deployed Ozma once on the normal endgame route to use his P MAP and take out a small cluster of grunts.
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