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Ev Training is cheating? How do you feel when someone says that?

#71Aqua69696Posted 11/18/2012 7:38:25 AM
FungusForBrains posted...
72nd_Gunslinger posted...
EV training itself is obviously not cheating (I EV train all the time by myself), but I've always thought it was interesting how people differentiate between EV training and RNG manipulation/perfect-IV breeding.

For one, there isn't any way to determine which pokemon give out which EVs "legitimately," i.e. without looking into the game's internal mathematics/source code (very similar to what you do with RNG manipulation). Even if you get the numbers off of a website, the person who put them there ultimately got them from someone who looked into the game's internals. Far as I can tell, there has been no formal source from Nintendo/Game Freak that details the exact values given out by each pokemon.

Even if you argue that RNG manipulates the math on a deeper level than EV training, you could easily argue in turn that it's the same thing, just to a different degree --- EV training manipulates stat point growth by exploiting the hidden mathematical system by which those stats are determined, while RNG manipulations/IV manipulation just manipulates THOSE values/the internal math by which THEY are determined.

I've been EV training for too long to think of EV training as cheating, myself. But the way I see it, it doesn't really seem consistent to call EV training "legitimate" while discounting RNG abuse as "cheating," as they both are impossible without using external means to get the numbers/math you need to exploit them properly.


Theoretically, one could legitimately find out through experience. Eg, defeating one hundred Magikarp with one Pokemon, and that one is much faster at level 100 than the rest of your team, so you repeat with another and find the same results. Although it would be much more tedious and unlikely, it is a possibility.


Yeah, trying to claim RNG abuse as not cheating is like the people on that topic on the PS3 board who try to claim that buying used is worse than pirating.
If you're gonna be a cheater, at least admit to it. (I have no problem with RNG abuse, because it's just pokemon, but trying to say "It's not cheating" or "It's as much cheating as EV training" is where it turns you from a cheater (not necessarily bad) into a **** (Always a bad thing))
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Watch it pass the day As it fades away No more time to care No more time Today
#7272nd_GunslingerPosted 11/18/2012 8:04:34 PM
Theoretically, one could legitimately find out through experience. Eg, defeating one hundred Magikarp with one Pokemon, and that one is much faster at level 100 than the rest of your team, so you repeat with another and find the same results. Although it would be much more tedious and unlikely, it is a possibility.

Logically, you could only figure out so much. You could figure out that there is a tentative link between killing certain types of pokes and an increase in certain stats; however, there are some things that you would never be able to learn:

Things you could reasonably figure out
-) that certain pokemon increase certain stat points if KO'd repeatedly (this is a stretch to me; but I suppose it's possible if, for example, you were grinding levels on a certain wild poke and you happened to notice that your poke's stat was significantly higher than normal. But this would require several separate incidences in order to confirm, and so it would be entirely reasonable for you to simply assume that your pokemon has a higher stat value in that stat than you originally though [again, this is assuming that you have no outside info as to the "base stats" of a given poke])
-) that stats can only be increased up to a certain point
-) that certain items increase the rate at which these stats are increased by this method

Things you have almost no logical means of deducing using only in-game data

-) the link between "effort" (as explained by Bianca and the effort rater in-game) and status increases (theoretically you could conclude that a certain number of units equals "max effort," but this is such an obscure link that it's unlikely you would find it by accident)
-) what the "cap" for effort is, exactly (if you somehow managed to discern a link between the "effort" and status increase, which is a stretch, you wouldn't be able to find out what the limit was because there's no way to tell the exact unit of measurement; you would at best be able to discern a relative link, i.e. 2 magikarps equals 1 basculin; there would be no way to discern the actual root unit of the system used to quantify status increases, i.e. what exactly constitutes a single objective unit)

That said, even if you take the position that you could use the above methods to discern a connection between certain pokes, EVs, and effort, I sincerely doubt that the developers *expect* us to use such convoluted techniques to figure out how to level our mons. If they did, I would almost think they'd have no problem with us using RNG, either, since they're both based in the same super-complicated type of associative process.
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"The ones who aren't human....ARE YOU!!"
--Lucy, Elfen Lied
#73discodancer77Posted 11/18/2012 8:07:34 PM
serenade696969 posted...

Latios
Latias
Dragonair (said it was legendary)
cresselia
Latias (again)
Victini

He kept trying to use thunder and fire blast on me the whole match.

My lucario first match had quick claw and worked everytime i get lucky with it the second time he changed his team around he hit me once with psychic and i just swept his team from there


Opponent is a Pokemon master for not using Quick Claw
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#74HozuPosted 11/18/2012 8:07:36 PM
EVs were known back in 3rd gen. You know, when EV gains were calculated only upon level-up or boxing. Meaning it would definitely not be feasible to figure out how it works.
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#75alphapipiPosted 11/22/2012 4:07:14 PM
bump