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Rebuttal against the smogon hate

#51PolimarioPosted 12/5/2012 7:13:33 AM(edited)
Fennyariel posted...
Could somebody please tell me who or what Smogon is so I can maybe better understand this thread?


http://www.smogon.com/

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#52MugilokoPosted 12/5/2012 7:12:36 AM
Fennyariel posted...
Could somebody please tell me who or what Smogon is so I can maybe better understand this thread?


teh devil
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#53sivartauhsojPosted 12/5/2012 9:05:39 AM
Because Smogon users battle on simulators tens of thousands of times a day, they have quite a bit of statistics and data to back up their choices. Of course the choices aren't perfect; that's why they have suspect tests and make changes to them when necessary.

Tiers are based on usage up through OU. However, Ubers and the different BL tiers are more like banlists than actual tiers. For example, Staraptor is a bit too strong in the current UU tier but is not used enough in OU to be an official part of that tier. So, it's in the BL (Borderline) tier between UU and OU which basically just means it's banned from UU.

In most cases, if you have one or two Pokemon in a weaker tier that you want to use in UU, you can make a team around them, and they'll be successful. Many people's favorite Pokemon is Charizard, who is nowhere near OU status. However, on a team with Ninetails and with Solar Power as his ability, he just needs a rapid spinner to get rid of stealth rock then he can come in and sweep with the most powerful special attack in the tier.

My favorite type is fighting, and I am able to have success in OU running a non-weather, non-entry hazards, monotype fighting team. I have a positive win ratio and keep my rating hovering around 1500-1600 with the team. Just because Smogon sets and core teams are proven by many to be successful doesn't mean that there aren't teams and movesets that can't compete with them. My team was sort of developed as an anti-metagame team that's hyper offensive. On my whole team, there are only five moves out of 24 that aren't direct attacks. Having so much offensive pressure can screw with teams that take a long time to set up.
#54infinitexxPosted 12/5/2012 9:24:21 AM
aznseal posted...
Smogon is dumb because they ban certain moves like double team or moody
I mean, if you want me to, I can wreck you with a team of 6 double team users. You let me know how fun that is.


They're suspect testing Evasion in Ubers. Honestly, Double Team isn't the end of the world, but Minimize and Moody are stupidly broken (Moody isn't being tested, that's banned under the Moody Clause).
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#55Why_Is_PurplePosted 12/5/2012 9:28:08 AM
aznseal posted...
But I want to use Excadrill in OU not ubers! (connected to above point)
Then you are being a hypocrite. Why does your desire to use Excadrill in OU outweigh someone else's desire to use Kyogre or Palka?


Not to immerse myself in the argument, but I would like to point out that the above quote is a circular argument; it uses Smogon's logic in order to justify/prove Smogon's logic (i.e. uses Smogon's tiers in order to counter an anti-Smogon claim). I'm not against Smogon, but I just think the implied argument is valid. Some things done by Smogon don't make sense, such as banning Blaziken overall from OU because they don't feel like banning just the ability + Pokémon combination. The OP seems far from systematic, and it rather seems like something thrown together in a few minutes. There are lots of holes in the arguments, and most of them seem ad hominem or ad populum.
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#56pokemonfreak97Posted 12/5/2012 10:04:14 AM
So, my opinion:

Smogon tries to balance the metagame because they recognize that some things (e.g. the ability Moody, which has allowed a lone Bidoof to set up and sweep a team of legendaries, the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle (which for nearly all users, both doubles Speed and the power of STAB moves) (sorry Beartic) without any drawbacks save more accurate Electric-type moves (or is it just Thunder?))) are objectively the best strategies; if there is nothing you can do to kill a Bidoof without losing your Dialga, there's something wrong. By separating Pokémon into tiers by usage, they have (mainly) criteria for movement that they have no control over; if all teams in Under-Used start using one specific Pokémon, you can't really call it "under-used" anymore, so it goes up. The reason there are banlists is because if there is no possible way to counter a Pokémon within a tier (or there is one specific way that is becoming overly prevalent; compare Genesect and Heatran), they have to have a way to get rid of Pokémon which, regardless of popularity, are too strong to be used in a certain tier.

And now everyone will attack me for being a Smogon fanboy.

Well, let the trolling begin!
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#57MugilokoPosted 12/5/2012 10:07:32 AM
pokemonfreak97 posted...
So, my opinion:

Smogon tries to balance the metagame because they recognize that some things (e.g. the ability Moody, which has allowed a lone Bidoof to set up and sweep a team of legendaries, the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle (which for nearly all users, both doubles Speed and the power of STAB moves) (sorry Beartic) without any drawbacks save more accurate Electric-type moves (or is it just Thunder?))) are objectively the best strategies; if there is nothing you can do to kill a Bidoof without losing your Dialga, there's something wrong. By separating Pokémon into tiers by usage, they have (mainly) criteria for movement that they have no control over; if all teams in Under-Used start using one specific Pokémon, you can't really call it "under-used" anymore, so it goes up. The reason there are banlists is because if there is no possible way to counter a Pokémon within a tier (or there is one specific way that is becoming overly prevalent; compare Genesect and Heatran), they have to have a way to get rid of Pokémon which, regardless of popularity, are too strong to be used in a certain tier.

And now everyone will attack me for being a Smogon fanboy.

Well, let the trolling begin!


u suq becoz u r a smoron fanboi

get out
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#58Nidhogg151Posted 12/5/2012 10:14:39 AM
infinitexx posted...
aznseal posted...
Smogon is dumb because they ban certain moves like double team or moody
I mean, if you want me to, I can wreck you with a team of 6 double team users. You let me know how fun that is.


They're suspect testing Evasion in Ubers. Honestly, Double Team isn't the end of the world, but Minimize and Moody are stupidly broken (Moody isn't being tested, that's banned under the Moody Clause).


I don't think it'll pass. Back in Pearl I made a Bronzong that had Double Team, Calm Mind, Psychic, and Iron Defense. On wifi battles 1 initial Double Team was enough to allow me to eventually max out both of its defenses, evasion, and sp. attack, to give me a Pokemon that took nearly no damage if it got hit, and had a very powerful Psychic that would one shot almost anything. Now, it wasn't invincible of course, but you would have to have Mist or Oder Sleuth (because I believe moves like Roar, Dragon Tail, etc. can miss right?) or be using a Dark type to kill it. All of which I don't believe are terribly common, and I believe having to have one of a few specific abilities is the reason banlists exist right?
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#59ClassyOldHatPosted 12/5/2012 11:37:02 AM
I'll just post why I think Smogon gets a lot of hate, from a post I made on a previous topic.

ClassyOldHat posted...

I'm one of those people who used to hate Smogon, but have gone to feeling neutral about it after I realized the purpose of tiers was not so they could make fun of my favorites, but so I could use them in an environment where they can work. And frankly, I enjoy a less luck based game. (I'd take the worst excesses of Smogon rules over the Hax Subway any day.)

Why is my opinion merely neutral about them now, though, rather than giving them full support? And why could I not tell their intent right off the bat? Well, there's a lot to those questions, but a big part of it was summed up nicely here:

electric_emu posted...


Also, at least in my personal experience, Smogon's community is full of people who are... not very nice. Even moreso than what I'd expect from anywhere on the internet. Even the moderators and admins can get catty. Again, that's just my experience. But I avoid the forums unless I'm reading a debate on certain moves/Pokemon/etc.



It's hard to tell that they're trying to help you find an environment where your Pokemon works when instead of saying

"There is no way an Arbok could ever handle the average OU threats; play it in NU instead, and you'll have much more fun"

they say

"If for some reason (presumably being dropped on your head as an infant and suffering multiple forms of mental radiation) you wish to use the the shriveled ugly trash that is Arbok, stick to NU with the rest of the trashy useless wastes of Pokedex space."

These people could just be a vocal minority, I'll admit, but it still makes it an unpleasant place to deal with.

There are a few other areas I also disagree with them on (which Pokemon should or shouldn't be banned, the fairness of Stealth Rocks, whether Sleep clause was truly needed before gen 5, etc.) but I can live with them. I let players know which rules I follow, and will sometimes follow theirs in return if I find them reasonable.

That said, I can also understand the frustration of players who enjoy a more luck-based game when nearly everyone refuses to play with them because of Smogon's widely followed rules.
#60chaoslordisgoodPosted 12/5/2012 11:47:46 AM
Anclation posted...
IMO most of the hate against Smogon is completely unwarranted, and the most common complaints (like "Why can't I use Blaze Blaziken in OU?" or "Why is Swift Swim + Drizzle banned, when Drought + Chlorophyll is legal?") simply show that they don't understand the Metagame, let alone the reasoning behind Smogon's rules.


Blaze Blaziken isn't banned because of the metagame.
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