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Iris: "Kyurem is the strongest dragon-type Pokemon in the world."

#21DragonNinja1337Posted 12/9/2012 6:44:23 AM
LenneValkirye posted...
PyroThrower posted...
Reshiram.

Case closed.


You're not too familiar with the uber metagame are you?
Kyurem-W is single-handedly responsible for Reshiram's downfall in ubers. In fact I heard it might even be tested in OU because rain turns it into a worse Latios.


While you may be familiar with the general consensus about the Übers metagame, such a familiarity hardly guarantees a familiarity with the actual Übers metagame itself, since the vast majority of people appear to be mistaken about a great number of points about that metagame.

Below is a list of the advantages Reshiram has over Kyurem-W:

- Not only does Kyurem-W not have a single move that is anywhere near as strong as Reshiram's Sun-boosted Blue Flare, but unlike Reshiram's strongest move, Kyurem-W's strongest move lowers its Special Attack by two stages with every use. To give you a better idea of just what this means: Choice Scarf Reshiram is almost as fast as Choice Scarf Kyurem-W while simultaneously it is almost as powerful as Choice Specs Kyurem-W, while Kyurem-W can be either very powerful but not too fast (with Choice Specs) or fast but not have an over-the-top level of power (with Choice Scarf). It cannot ever run a set that possesses the same combination of Speed and power as Choice Scarf Reshiram (and that very combination of Speed and power is exactly why Choice Scarf Kyogre is the most commonly-used Pokémon in Übers). And then you may consider the fact that Reshiram itself is also perfectly capable of holding Choice Specs, in which case power-wise, its Sun-boosted Blue Flare completely blows away any move any kind of attack Kyurem-W could use.

- Exactly for the reason mentioned above, Reshiram makes a far better Choice Scarf Pokémon than Kyurem-W, at least in the Sun (ironically, Choice Specs is Reshiram's most commonly-held item, whereas Choice Scarf is Kyurem-W's most commonly-held item, which just further shows that the general consensus about things in Übers don't tend to be right). Consider that Choice Scarf Reshiram is capable of performing a lategame sweep against a remaining team consisting of an Arceus-Normal at 70% health, a Mewtwo, a Darkrai and a Groudon (I know this as I have performed such a lategame sweep myself with Choice Scarf Reshiram), something Kyurem-W could only dream of doing, due to the Choice Scarf set's lack of power, and the Choice Specs set's lack of Speed.

- Reshiram has Flame Charge.

- Reshiram has a 4x resistance, rather than neutrality to Fire (Kyurem-W can be taken out in one hit, without any prior damage, by a Sun-boosted Life Orb Sacred Fire, whereas Reshiram shrugs it off easily).

- Reshiram has a resistance, rather than neutrality to Bug (both Reshiram and Kyurem-W give Genesect an Attack boost via Download, and +1 U-turn easily rips off half of Kyurem-W's health).

- Reshiram has a resistance, rather than weakness to Steel (Kyurem-W takes massive damage from Scizor's Bullet Punch, gets taken out in one hit by Genesect's +1 Iron Head (Iron Head Genesect seems to be increasing in popularity), and gets beaten by Arceus-Steel, unlike Reshiram, which counters Arceus-Steel).

- Reshiram has a neutrality, rather than weakness to Fighting (not as important as the above points though).
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#22DragonNinja1337Posted 12/9/2012 6:52:31 AM(edited)
I am a person who has reached #1 on fifteen different Übers ladders across Pokémon Showdown and four different Pokémon Online servers.

In each and every instance in which I reached #1 on an Übers ladder, the team I used contained either Reshiram or Kyurem-W.

When Pokémon Black and White 2 were first released, I temporarily replaced the Reshiram that I used in my best Übers team from Pokémon Black and White 1 with a Kyurem-W, just to test out this new Pokémon. I ended up putting Reshiram back exactly because of Kyurem-W's inability to be simultaneously as fast and powerful as my old Choice Scarf Reshiram, and also because of its amplification of the team's previously-subtle Ho-Oh weakness (in case this may sound strange, my Reshiram knows Stone Edge).

With all of that said, I do consider Kyurem-W to be overall the better Pokémon, almost entirely in respect to the fact that it can fit into teams of any weather, whereas Reshiram has its home only in a Sun team. Although, Kyurem-W's resistance rather than neutrality to Water, its 95 base Speed, as well as the fact that Choice Specs Ice Beam allows it to kill both Ferrothorn and Dragon-type Pokémon without any need of prediction, are three other significant advantages over Reshiram, but not as much as the lack of weather-dependence. But given the assumption that the Pokémon in question is used in a Sun team, Reshiram is usually the far better choice.
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Smogon sucks.
#23LenneValkiryePosted 12/9/2012 6:52:34 AM
Reshiram has 150 Sp.Atk and 90 Spe.
Kyurem-W has 170 Sp.Atk and 95 Spe, plus it's not gimped by rain or sun as badly as Reshiram.

How on earth is Kyu-W "not as fat or powerful" as Reshiram under any circumstance?
Either way the usage statistics of the uber tier in the past few months speak for themselves - Reshiram is being used less and less because Kyurem-W almost completely outclasses it... even the sheer power of Reshiram's Blue Flare with sunny weather is largely meaningless because Kyurem-W's Fusion Flare still OHKO's anything faster and 2HKO's anything slower.
#24DragonNinja1337Posted 12/9/2012 7:33:29 AM(edited)
LenneValkirye posted...
Reshiram has 150 Sp.Atk and 90 Spe.
Kyurem-W has 170 Sp.Atk and 95 Spe, plus it's not gimped by rain or sun as badly as Reshiram.

How on earth is Kyu-W "not as fat or powerful" as Reshiram under any circumstance?


For the sake of the following comparisons, let us use Arceus-Normal as a target to test the powers of Choice Scarf Reshiram, Choice Scarf Kyurem-W, and Choice Specs Kyurem-W:

Choice Scarf Reshiram reaches a Speed of 459, as well as a level of power as demonstrated by the calculation below:

252 SAtk Neutral Nature Turboblaze Reshiram's Blue Flare (130 BP) Against
252 HP / 0 SDef Neutral Nature Multitype Arceus In The Sun.

Probable Damage: 303 - 357 (68.24% - 80.41% of 444 HP).

100% chance to 2HKO.


Choice Scarf Kyurem-W reaches a Speed of 475, as well as a level of power as demonstrated by the calculation below:

252 SAtk Neutral Nature Turboblaze Kyurem-W's Draco Meteor (140 BP) Against
252 HP / 0 SDef Neutral Nature Multitype Arceus.

Probable Damage: 240 - 283 (54.05% - 63.74% of 444 HP).

100% chance to 2HKO.


Choice Specs Kyurem-W reaches a Speed of 317, as well as a level of power as demonstrated by the calculation below:

252 SAtk Neutral Nature Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W's Draco Meteor (140 BP) Against
252 HP / 0 SDef Neutral Nature Multitype Arceus.

Probable Damage: 358 - 423 (80.63% - 95.27% of 444 HP).

100% chance to 2HKO.


And Kyurem-W cannot hold both Choice Scarf and Choice Specs simultaneously.

You cannot judge the power of a Pokémon entirely by the value of their offensive stats, as the moves used by the Pokémon make up half of that Pokémon's power. Despite the fact that Tyranitar was tied with Dragonite as having the highest Attack (134) of all Pokémon in Generation II, no one considered it to be more powerful than Snorlax (which has 110 Attack) in Generation II, simply because Snorlax's Double-Edge has an effective base power of 180, whereas Tyranitar's strongest move besides Hyper Beam was Rock Slide, which has an effective base power of 112.5. Similarly, Kyurem-W's 20 point Special Attack advantage over Reshiram is completely and utterly negated by the fact that Blue Flare in the Sun has an effective base power of 292.5, as opposed to the effective base power of Kyurem-W's Draco Meteor, which is 210.

In the same way Kyurem-W's 5 extra base Speed isn't going to make up for the 1.5x Speed boost that Reshiram receives from Choice Scarf, unless Kyurem-W chooses to hold Choice Scarf as well, in which case it becomes significantly weaker than Reshiram for the aforementioned reason.
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Smogon sucks.
#25DragonNinja1337Posted 12/9/2012 7:32:19 AM
LenneValkirye posted...
Either way the usage statistics of the uber tier in the past few months speak for themselves - Reshiram is being used less and less because Kyurem-W almost completely outclasses it... even the sheer power of Reshiram's Blue Flare with sunny weather is largely meaningless because Kyurem-W's Fusion Flare still OHKO's anything faster and 2HKO's anything slower.


Because the vast majority of people hold the following (among many other) incorrect beliefs:

- "Kyogre is the best Pokémon in Übers"
- "Physically defensive Giratina or bulky Arceus with Will-O-Wisp is a counter to Extreme Killer Arceus"
- "Choice Scarf is the best item for Palkia"
- "Leftovers is the best item for Ho-Oh"
- "V-create is a terrible move on Rayquaza"
- "Rain is the best weather in Übers"
- "Magic Bounce Pokémon suck in Übers"

...I am afraid that the usage statistics of the Übers tier in fact do not in any way speak for themselves regarding anything.

And regarding what you said about Kyurem-W's Fusion Flare... no. In the Sun, its effective base power is only 150, as opposed to Blue Flare's 272.5. Plenty of Pokémon, especially Arceus Formes, can survive Kyurem-W's Fusion Flare.
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#26SilverSaint7Posted 12/9/2012 8:25:56 AM
Let's not forget that Ubers is a tier where Charizard is used more than some formes of Arceus... Usage stats don't mean s*** here >_>
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#27bwburke94Posted 12/11/2012 4:39:15 PM
Base Kyurem is beaten by Reshiram and Zekrom in BST among dragons. Plus Draco Arceus if it counts.

Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W are tied for second behind Arceus in BST of any Pokemon. So what she's saying is true.

There's still a 0% chance that THIS Iris is the champion. (BW2 spoilers)
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#28MileRunPosted 12/11/2012 4:44:53 PM
Uh, as far as the anime is concerned, I'm pretty sure the space-time warping Sinnoh dragons have Kyurem beat in terms of raw power.
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#29Sebas27Posted 12/11/2012 4:56:58 PM
MileRun posted...
Uh, as far as the anime is concerned, I'm pretty sure the space-time warping Sinnoh dragons have Kyurem beat in terms of raw power.


Well she did say Kyurem is the strongest dragon in the world, which is still below Palkia/Dialga's universal range of power. Plus they usually hang out in their own dimensions
#30noname2lazyPosted 12/11/2012 5:19:26 PM
SilverSaint7 posted...
Let's not forget that Ubers is a tier where Charizard is used more than some formes of Arceus... Usage stats don't mean s*** here >_>


Well Charizard is actually pretty good in Ubers (If you can keep Stealth Rock off your field).