You know what? No. Screw Kratos!

#51NDgamer1122(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2012 2:41:21 PM
From: DanteTheBest | #048

Lastly, the amount of skill that a character requires has NOTHING AT ALL to do with how good they are. People just don't like Kratos because he has a small learning curve, making him easy to use/get good with. You can get good with any character, and yes some characters are harder to learn than others, but just because one character is good and easy to use doesn't mean that he deserves to be nerfed.


See, I don't mind a character being easy to use. Scorpion in Mortal Kombat, for example, is easy to use, having easy combos to remember and a small amount of special moves. What balances Scorpion though is that his specials are generally easy to read because they are so limited and rather predictable, and if you miss them or have them blocked, he is open and easy to punish. This is how Kratos should have worked, easy to grasp his moveset and approach, but easily punishable if he doesn't use it skillfully.

Of course, this point is moot to you because somehow you are awesome against every Kratos player you see. I'd still like to see evidence to back this up.
#52NDgamer1122(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2012 2:42:58 PM
From: wwinterj25 | #050
NDgamer1122 posted...
Did your character have a significant amount of ranged attacks?

Was your character Raiden or Kratos?

If neither, then respect for you, sir.


My main is Heihachi and that's who I was. Take that as you will.


Respect for you, sir. Respect for you.

Out of curiosity, how many fighting games have you played before this one? Do you consider yourself good at them?
#53DireProphecyPosted 12/9/2012 2:46:53 PM
NDgamer1122 posted...
Dante, can you at least address the fact that Kratos's normals have one of the lowest recovery times in the entire game, if not THE lowest? I have not timed other chracters, but Kratos is pretty damn fast to attack and recover. You have to take into consideration the risk vs. reward of Kratos' attacks, and with how safe they are to use, with such high AP gain, it feels unbalanced. You can talk to me all day about how easy you in particular think it is to punish him, but if more people think he is harder to punish, then that is a fact that backs up how cheap/broken he is, whichever word I'm actually looking for. I'd actually like a definition for each so that I may use the correct word.

Also, why would you not roll to get behind Kratos? Rolling away from him seems more silly, as he has long range, and you still have to get in close to get at him if you lack projectile moves. I'd actually like to know what your specific strategy is, because you've been saying people do not know how to punish him, yet you seem to know how. Serious question here, what is your technique? What moves on what characters are most effective for you?

As for getting mad every time I see one, I do not. I get pissed after losing to a spammy one, but every match I play against a Kratos, I always try to be as careful as I can to get in close and get an opening before I can attack. I just always seem to mess up somehow, because he just uses his normals and interrupts me quite often. I honestly don't know what I am doing wrong, so that's why I think Kratos's normals are cheap. When you play this game for hours, and try to get good at blocking and dodging, and it just doesn't seem to work enough to punish bad players, that's when it gets really frustrating.


If you think kratos is going to side square from a distance, it can be air-dodged/blocked/rolled through on reaction. If the Kratos uses that move up close, he is stupid first of all, but the move is highly punishable on block/evade/whatever you did to get around it. As for his other square moves, just learn what his combos are, and don't let go of block until he finishes his square combo/stops early, and then react. If you roll behind Kratos during his square combo, just keep holding block because he can and will change direction if he's good. Also, when you are in the air above Kratos, you can bait his side square by air-dodging into him, and if he does the side square, you will land in front of him and have PLENTY of time to punish. Also, when Kratos has his level 1 or 2, just be smart and don't get hit by them. Think like Kratos and think how he would try to land them. All of Kratos' AP racking is meaningless if he can't land his supers.
#54LustiakPosted 12/9/2012 2:50:10 PM
I win against a Kratos with Sly everytime...
A skilled Kratos is hardly any different from a Kratos with common sense.

He's spammy early game, but once he wastes his supers, especially level 3, he's out of the game. His level 3 is the worst level 3 in the entire game. It is easily dodgable and there's really no skill to it. With Sly, I can teleport behind him every time he wants to attack me. His start up isn't fast enough to hit me before I can react.

Yes, he's annoying, especially in crowded areas. But that's just it. I've only seen a Kratos being "fed". Meaning, all the idiots are fighting and trapping us in one corner while Kratos is sitting behind us with a super.

The main thing is to kill him as much as possible, or at least try to kill him once. And be careful when he has level 1/2. If you're getting mobbed by an as shole excluding Kratos from that mob, then Kratos will most likely kill all of you if he's smart. Never ever try to mob attack someone while excluding Kratos, in fact, you probably shouldn't exclude anyone with a super. Either 1v1 to build AP or 1v3 to build AP, never 1v2 unless it's a short combo that will get you out of there quick.

If you're completely desperate and afraid of dying. This strategy works a lot and assures less deaths than anything. Turtle or backstab. Turtling is pretty much running up to attack and then running away to avoid all fights. Backstabbing is well, pretty much attacking from their back while they're in mid-combo. Though you have to be careful on this, because Kratos is able to turn around in mid-combo, so pay attention to his combos and know when to attack.

ALL OF THAT may sound really hard, but it's not. Kratos isn't as hard as you think.
-------------
Also a very optional but probably more useful tactic if you're good at it:
Counter, a lot of characters have a counter(maybe all?, I haven't played them all yet)

Anyways, this is coming from a current Red Belt using Sly that has beaten many Kratos and lost to many Sackboys...
#55schmetePosted 12/9/2012 2:55:51 PM
DanteTheBest posted...
How is Kratos "Designed to promote spam"?!?
First of all, Kratos can't even spam that well! If you didn't know, his side square knocks people away from him, his arrows don't knock people back, and if he spams to much, he will be punished for it!

Secondly, Sackboy's moveset wasn't changed AT ALL. The only thing they did to him was make his AP gain worse. This made Sackboy users HAVE to combo and actually use skill to get level 3 with him. The thing about this is, Kratos already has a huge AP requirement for his specials, and all his specials are pretty bad!

Lastly, the amount of skill that a character requires has NOTHING AT ALL to do with how good they are. People just don't like Kratos because he has a small learning curve, making him easy to use/get good with. You can get good with any character, and yes some characters are harder to learn than others, but just because one character is good and easy to use doesn't mean that he deserves to be nerfed.


Promote was the wrong word to use. More that spamming is rewarded with results. Kratos is one of the few that can go really far by simply mashing the square button. Not fool proof, but effective. I think that's bad design.

Secondly, I never said anything about changing his moveset. I said they changed him. And they did.

And lastly, I intended for my final point to relate to my first. His low risk attacks are rewarded with high results. He has a number of very small things about him that I think put him above most other characters. Some involve his supers (I think his L2 shouldn't hit behind him on the ground), some involve his basic moves (obv. chain lock and low cooldown). Compared to the other characters, he just has a lot less to lose when you just go out swinging your arms wildly.
#56DanteTheBestPosted 12/9/2012 2:58:00 PM
Alright, Kratos does have a rather quick recovery time, but it is still completely possible to punish. As for the 'risk vs reward', the risk depends on what character you are. The 'risk' against some characters may be death, while others *cough jak cough* may just be a couple hits.
Also, the comment I said about rolling applies to people (mostly radec users) who just roll constantly, like do nothing but roll, only using roll to move. That will not work at all.

As for strategies to fight him, I'll list a few for characters I know a bit about
For ANYONE: Simply predict that he's about to use side square (Generally if they are just casually walking towards you, or are above/below you on a platform) Than roll towards the kratos (Or air dodge if at different hights) and than punish him. If you're right next to Kratos, just block his sqaure combo and punish him for it. If you got knocked up high in the air and Kratos is below you, he is GOING to jump up and use an air move. Just air dodge through it and wait for him on the ground.
Dante: Block his side square, Dash to him with side circle, than cancel into a combo. Jump above him, bait ANY air move, air dodge, than punish with down/up square.
Sly Cooper: Teleport behind him or through his side sqaure, jump above and drop mines to prevent him from comos, charge down square alot
Sweet Tooth: Have a mine out and camp near it at ALL TIMES to prevent him from comboing. Bait a side sqaure using a mine between the two of you, air dodge through it, than down sqaure to level 1 special
Sackboy: Pretty obvious. It's sackboy.
Raiden: Counter alot, easily punish with side sqaure/triangle, and get easy level 1's by either predicting or just doing Raiden stuff.
Evil Cole: Falcon punch through everything he has and get an easy as balls level 1 kill

I don't know too much about other characters, or I'm just too lazy to put it down, but there are countless more strategies for fighting him (I could list 100's of things for Dante, Sly, and Sweet Tooth, my mains) but those are just the basics. Learn Kratos patterns that basically all Kratos' use (Approach with a side sqaure, begin juggle game, wait for you to land than combo) and try reading and predicting. Boom.
#57NDgamer1122(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2012 3:01:27 PM
Thanks for the tips, Dire and Lustiak. I'll try to take them and run with them.

To Dire - I usually don't have a problem with his side square, given it's slow enough to punish him, but in general, I cannot for the life of me punish in between his normal squares. They are just way too fast. I don't know if my reaction time is actually crap or what, but it's really not helping Kratos in my eyes that he's one of the fastest melee combo characters in the game.

To Lustiak - Yeah, characters with counters, especialy Sly, have a good advantage on Kratos if they can time their counters well, and Sly's is one of the best counters in the game to make up for the fact that he cannot dodge or block. But, say I'm playing a melee character that cannot counter. At that point, my only choice is to get in close and block/dodge my way til I can punish.

I could try keeping the pressure on Kratos. Not something one would think of since Kratos is designed to keep the pressure on everyone else. It also sucks whenever I do get caught in someone else's combo, and we both get blindsided by Kratos's level 1. Not really much I can do to avoid that except dodge getting combo'd, but sometimes you just get caught, and there's nothing you can do but just sit there and wait for your demise.
#58NDgamer1122(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2012 3:11:37 PM
From: DanteTheBest | #056
Alright, Kratos does have a rather quick recovery time, but it is still completely possible to punish. As for the 'risk vs reward', the risk depends on what character you are. The 'risk' against some characters may be death, while others *cough jak cough* may just be a couple hits.
Also, the comment I said about rolling applies to people (mostly radec users) who just roll constantly, like do nothing but roll, only using roll to move. That will not work at all.

As for strategies to fight him, I'll list a few for characters I know a bit about
For ANYONE: Simply predict that he's about to use side square (Generally if they are just casually walking towards you, or are above/below you on a platform) Than roll towards the kratos (Or air dodge if at different hights) and than punish him. If you're right next to Kratos, just block his sqaure combo and punish him for it. If you got knocked up high in the air and Kratos is below you, he is GOING to jump up and use an air move. Just air dodge through it and wait for him on the ground.
Dante: Block his side square, Dash to him with side circle, than cancel into a combo. Jump above him, bait ANY air move, air dodge, than punish with down/up square.
Sly Cooper: Teleport behind him or through his side sqaure, jump above and drop mines to prevent him from comos, charge down square alot
Sweet Tooth: Have a mine out and camp near it at ALL TIMES to prevent him from comboing. Bait a side sqaure using a mine between the two of you, air dodge through it, than down sqaure to level 1 special
Sackboy: Pretty obvious. It's sackboy.
Raiden: Counter alot, easily punish with side sqaure/triangle, and get easy level 1's by either predicting or just doing Raiden stuff.
Evil Cole: Falcon punch through everything he has and get an easy as balls level 1 kill

I don't know too much about other characters, or I'm just too lazy to put it down, but there are countless more strategies for fighting him (I could list 100's of things for Dante, Sly, and Sweet Tooth, my mains) but those are just the basics. Learn Kratos patterns that basically all Kratos' use (Approach with a side sqaure, begin juggle game, wait for you to land than combo) and try reading and predicting. Boom.


Oh, yeah, I use more than just rolling to move. The end lag on a roll is too great for what it's worth.

Thank you for at least acknowledging he has super fast recovery time. Of course, it is possible to punish Kratos, just somewhat difficult, which is why I, and many others, feel he is imbalanced, because for what he's worth, he should definitely have more end lag on his attacks to balance him out. Refer to the Scorpion example I posted above.

Well...at least the Sweet Tooth strategy will help me, since he is one of my mains. I didn't know much about the properties of Evil Cole's fire punch. Does it really have some kind of super armor? I'll have to play with it a bit more, since I liked the Coles.

And hey, thanks for keeping calm with me and actually giving advice to back up your claims. Some on this site are quick to jump the gun on "whiners" and say "lrn2play", but don't actually give proof or advice.
#59DanteTheBestPosted 12/9/2012 3:46:11 PM
I meant neutral square in the air to level 1 special.
And thanks, you seem like one of the smarter people on this site. Don't know why you don't like Kratos, though.
#60NDgamer1122(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2012 4:11:18 PM
From: DanteTheBest | #059
I meant neutral square in the air to level 1 special.
And thanks, you seem like one of the smarter people on this site. Don't know why you don't like Kratos, though.


Thanks for the compliment. My rage does get the better of me sometimes, but in general I like to take a step back and reason with people, and try not to instigate or continue arguments.

And I knew what you meant. Figured it was just a mistake.

And Kratos is just a constant thorn in my side. Having to deal with him online all day is tiresome, especially with all of the reasons I have given that he is super cheap. I really wish people would use different characters more often. The times I do play matches with all underused characters, it's quite a joy, and if I lose, it's generally because that player actually outplayed me. Whenever I lose to a spammy Kratos, whether it is actually my mistakes adding up or not, it's still infuriating.