Jak is probably the worst character in the game.

#31MajesticFerretPosted 1/26/2013 8:39:45 PM
Jak's not bottom. His zone and mobility is excellent to where defensively, he's one of the best. You can't be one of the best defensively and be bottom tier, especially not 1v1.

We've all already discussed how the 1v1 in this game is innately flawed and how countless characters aren't really designed well for it because of the odd kill count. Even then, Jak is FAR from being the worst at 1v1 and is actually pretty solid at it. His lv. 3 is a solid 2 kills and you can tech trap them into a lv. 1 with his gravity gun, but it requires good prediction on the Jak players part.

Either way, a skilled Jak should be good enough at zoning to where the low and other middle tiers should have troubles even touching him.



As for FFA, his AP gain is bad, but it's not bad enough to where a skilled Jak can't get his lv. 3 and quite frankly, a good level 3 is really all you need in FFA.
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Sanity is a one trick pony, all you get with it is rational thought, but with crazy the sky's the limit.
#32CrabhammarPosted 1/26/2013 8:44:02 PM
tscookt posted...
Crabhammar posted...
blazin640 posted...
IcyFlamez96 posted...
blazin640 posted...
No such thing as a worst character in the game. Sorry.

Even then, Jak would be far from the worst.


I disagree with both these statements =p


Your opinion. But here is my point:

why are there such things as good Sir Dans? Sir Dan is low tier too right? It should be impossible for him to win against good people right? Not necessarily. You see, every character has an obvious weakness as well as the player. Recognize this weakness, have skill, and have strategy, anyone can win with any character.


Huh?

A good player playing a bad character doesn't make the character good.


All blazin640 is saying, is that if you have two players of equal "skill" playing against each other and one is using a character like raiden (high tier) and the other is using sir dan (low tier), that the raiden player isnt necessarily going to win solely because of the character when players are of equal skill


Ah. I see.
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#33blaze19_0X(Topic Creator)Posted 1/26/2013 8:48:36 PM
MajesticFerret posted...
Jak's not bottom. His zone and mobility is excellent to where defensively, he's one of the best. You can't be one of the best defensively and be bottom tier, especially not 1v1.

We've all already discussed how the 1v1 in this game is innately flawed and how countless characters aren't really designed well for it because of the odd kill count. Even then, Jak is FAR from being the worst at 1v1 and is actually pretty solid at it. His lv. 3 is a solid 2 kills and you can tech trap them into a lv. 1 with his gravity gun, but it requires good prediction on the Jak players part.

Either way, a skilled Jak should be good enough at zoning to where the low and other middle tiers should have troubles even touching him.



As for FFA, his AP gain is bad, but it's not bad enough to where a skilled Jak can't get his lv. 3 and quite frankly, a good level 3 is really all you need in FFA.


The tournament results we do have don't suggest Jak is solid at 1 vs 1 at all.

His zoning game is average at best. His zoning tools really aren't good at controlling and commanding space which is what zoning is all about. His only decent one is the down circle but even that has super slow startup and huge recoil so it's not really a massive threat.

He can be a bit annoying sure, but he just doesn't have the advantage when aiming to win the war of attrition and get that level 3. I think that's his main problem.

Tech chasing into raw level 1 is something any character can do in this game but it's not super reliable as it relies on you successfully getting the hard read.

Perhaps over time Jak will get some serious tech, as of right now the evidence doesn't suggest he's okay in 1 vs 1.
#34blaze19_0X(Topic Creator)Posted 1/26/2013 8:50:49 PM

All blazin640 is saying, is that if you have two players of equal "skill" playing against each other and one is using a character like raiden (high tier) and the other is using sir dan (low tier), that the raiden player isnt necessarily going to win solely because of the character when players are of equal skill


Ah. I see.


In other words he's saying tiers and matchups don't exist in fighting games which means no one should still be seriously responding to him at this point.
#35LightEcoSagePosted 1/26/2013 9:12:54 PM
blaze19_0X posted...
This seems more and more apparent. Every other character at least has something going for them. Jak has nothing.

Let's start with the major things:

1. His level 1 AND level 2 are unreliable. His level 1 is basically a worse version of Sir Dan's (which at least you can aim right, left or up).Most other characters at least have a somewhat reliable level 2 even if they lack setups into level 1 (such as Parappa). But Jak fails in this category as well.

2. This means he has to mainly rely on his level 3 in a 1 vs 1. But now the problem is Jak CANNOT trade hits back and forth and expect to win because he gains AP at a far slower rate than normal. Some characters can rely on level 3s because they gain meter at a decent rate one way or the other. Jak has nothing, no strong tech chase game, no powerful juggle game etc.

Minor things that add up:

1. No walless AP burst combos or even reliable combos that net 80 or so. I believe he might be the only character without one at all (not including walls). PSASBR is predominantly an air based game but now players can remain grounded against Jak because even this threat isn't there. So he can't even do much even IF he keeps them grounded.

2. His grab range seems to be lower than most and unlike most, he doesn't cause a hard knockdown in front of him with his down throw.

3. His grounded normals are mediocre. None of them are even remotely safe on block.

All in all, he seems to be an extremely poorly designed and limited character. I don't know what was going through Superbot's head when they made him.

The game is still new and maybe in due time better Jak tech will be discovered. If not I'm afraid he'll remain firmly at the bottom of the barrel.


LES has arrive! Time to fix up some of these poor inconsistencies!

1. His Level 1 is reliable if you know how to use it. Statements like your only come from people who haven't played Jak for a long time at all.

2. Powerful juggle Jak has either by using Arc Wielder into Peace maker then spam Peace maker or use Needle Lazer into Peace Maker and spam PM. Its just not reliable all the time but his Peace Maker is in fact he only juggling tool. So I will basically just claim his Peace Maker does all the juggling work.

Your Minor things:

1. Jak actually does have combos that can net 80 AP without a wall. Its part of his hidden potential that can only be performed in FFA games only. I've never shared this because Im selfish xD. Its still extremely hard but it could be possibly every FFA game if your in the right places around the opponents.

2. His down throw doesn't need a knockdown because his forward throw already does the knockdown. However his down throw actually does need a buff in throwing range.

Everything else is true that I didn't correct. Even though I believe Jak is limited and poorly designed character I can tell you didn't play around with him long enough before coming up with your opinions. But yes overall he is bottom tier period.

Because of Jak's limitation and my stubbornness on not wanting to main any other characters im taking a long term break from this game until Jak gets a buff. This happens after the best player tournament though.
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"Jak, you are the Greatest of Heroes" ~Precursor Leader
#36blazin640Posted 1/26/2013 9:20:17 PM(edited)
blaze19_0X posted...

All blazin640 is saying, is that if you have two players of equal "skill" playing against each other and one is using a character like raiden (high tier) and the other is using sir dan (low tier), that the raiden player isnt necessarily going to win solely because of the character when players are of equal skill


Ah. I see.


In other words he's saying tiers and matchups don't exist in fighting games which means no one should still be seriously responding to him at this point.


Lol someone is angry :P. Didn't even read my other post.

Ho HO HO.

But on a serious note, by what you are saying, Raiden should always win. Correct?


WRONG!
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#37MajesticFerretPosted 1/26/2013 9:17:57 PM
The tournament results we do have don't suggest Jak is solid at 1 vs 1 at all.

Did this tournament have tiers or was it just full of nothing but top tiers? Because quite frankly, I don't see half of this game being viable in 1v1 at all, but I can easily see a good Jak steam rolling Spike/Heihachi/Dan/Nariko/Radec/BG and plenty of lesser characters in 1v1, which invalidates your statement about him being bottom of the list.

His zoning game is average at best.

Yeah, that's just wrong. His ranging tools easily compare to some of the best, let alone most of the cast, some of which have NO projectiles/range game to be found. His rifle is one of the best mid-range weapons in the game. Amazing range, super fast, builds solid AP, knocks people away if all 3 bullets hit, and he isn't forced to fire every bullet so a good Jak who isn't spammy can fire a bullet, see that he missed, and then go into his up triangle quick enough to hit someone trying to come in from above.

1v1 largely devolves into lots of people hopping around in the air and his seeker lazers are excellent air vs. air tools that beats out most other moves in the air in the game.

He's like a Radec who has far less punishable mid-range moves with crappier AP gain and a far more dangerous air game, which is definately good enough to not be low tier.

Tech chasing into raw level 1 is something any character can do in this game but it's not super reliable as it relies on you successfully getting the hard read.

Most characters don't have a tech chase that narrows your opponents options as much as this one, and if you turn it into a statistical guessing game to where you immediately just pick a left or right and activate the super immediately after the recovery, you turn it into about a 50/50 chance of it killing your opponent, which is still better than nothing and gives him a potential way to get that last kill after his lv. 3 gets some kills.

What does Spike/Sir Dan/BD have that makes what Jak brings to the table look so bad?
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Sanity is a one trick pony, all you get with it is rational thought, but with crazy the sky's the limit.
#38blaze19_0X(Topic Creator)Posted 1/26/2013 9:18:47 PM
I was referring to 1 vs 1 when I said he can't even reach 80AP (without walls). Obviously if you hit more than 1 character at once you'll gain more AP. I don't doubt Jak can get more in a FFA because of this.

The same goes for his level 1. Sure if you've got people distracted or on platforms or something in an FFA it becomes viable but I'm strictly talking about in competitive 1 vs 1 play. You can always go for hard reads sure, the point is other characters don't have to. And if you go for a hard read and miss, it leaves you wide open for a counter super.
#39blazin640Posted 1/26/2013 9:22:29 PM
blaze19 fears my logic. He knows that while tiers set a guide line, they aren't the end all see all.

You act like tiers determine who win. They don't. Players do.
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There goes my free time
#40blaze19_0X(Topic Creator)Posted 1/26/2013 9:25:12 PM
What does Spike/Sir Dan/BD have that makes what Jak brings to the table look so bad?

For one, a far superior tech chasing game. For another, they build AP far better overall. Also Big Daddy's Level 2 is actually one of the best in the game.

Tech chasing isn't 50/50 in this game. You've got to account for backrolls, forward rolls, delay (L1), jump on wakeup, wakeup super and probably more things I'm forgetting.

I'd say it's more of a 25% chance they'll pick the one option that lets you hit the level 1. Jak already builds meter so poorly, I wouldn't say it's worth the risk.

Which brings me to your other point. The reason I say his juggling game is poor overall is because the few juggling tools he does have barely build any AP. 5AP isn't exactly a lot. Again it goes back to the war of attrition. Other characters are going to beat him there. Just about everyone else.