Give me any moves you have trouble with and I will give you the solution to it.

#1DreoreSilerePosted 12/28/2013 10:03:23 AM
This thread is going from Bam's thread on the official forums. However, instead of posting his whole thread here word-for-word, I will attempt (wholeheartedly) to give my own answers to the moves you guys here at GameFAQs are having trouble with in a more systematic way. Like Bam's thread, this is to basically pool all available knowledge we have right now into a single thread that can be linked to whenever someone needs help dealing with a certain move. I would like this thread kept alive until it reaches 500 posts.

With that said, here's the legend I will be using:

N = Neutral
F = Forward
B = Back
U = Up
D = Down
a = aerial move
1 = Square
2 = Triangle
3 = Circle
4 = Cross

Let me know which moves you guys are struggling with. I will help you deal with them to the best of my capabilities.
I should go.
#2Ginta2468Posted 12/28/2013 10:12:15 AM
FP a.N1 as Sackboy.
When I am under pressure, I fail REALLY hard...
#3DreoreSilere(Topic Creator)Posted 12/28/2013 12:09:45 PM(edited)
When approaching Fat Princess, it's best to take note of the hitbox of her aN1 (Air Scepter Bash) or "oki-lancer." It is very deceptive and actually reaches outward in an arc in front of her. This means her scepter will hit anyone who is about 2 Practice Medium squares above her and below her. The start-up of the move is also quick, meaning it takes priority over many aerial moves. However, the actual start-up of the part of the scepter hitbox that hits below Fat Princess comes out later than the part that hits above her.

What does all this mean? It means that if you are fighting Fat Princess in the air, you want to make sure you are below her rather than above her. This will help to alleviate the fast start-up of her wand. While many people grasp the concept of staying in the air to avoid Fat Princess's wand sweep, knight, and kneel hit reaction, not many are familiar with the spacing required to avoid her oki-lancer. Indeed, jumping is a very helpful tool when fighting Fat Princess, however, making your jumps as short as possible and not getting above her (unless you are sure are away from the range of her scepter) is very important.

As for actually punishing the move, the important thing to note is that Fat Princess DOES stone fall after using it. If you can air-dodge it and land before she can, you can actually punish her with a grab or anti-air if you are fast enough. The move itself is unpunishable on block though.

So keep in mind that while you can do things to avoid her air scepter, you can and will be hit because everybody makes mistakes. Even if FP's scepter is difficult to deal with, it is the only way she can effectively do anything against aerial opponents.

To sum up...

1. Remember to space yourself and make sure you don't leave yourself vulnerable and airborne.
2. Short-hop below Fat Princess - not above her.
3. Air-dodge and punish her before she lands.
4. Use your character's fastest aerial move with an upward hitbox.

As for dealing with it as Sackboy, I have to say that I'm not too familiar with Sackboy's tools. From skimming through some Fat Princess-Sackboy matches however, I'm noticing a trend among Sackboys that they like to get up high into the air as possible. While this might be okay - and I'm trusting that high level Sackboys know the match-up better than I do - Fat Princess's scepter definitely has a deceptive reach and will always catch you if you whiff a bouncepad shield, jelly, or cake. From looking at some of Sackboy's aerial moves that have an upward hitbox, I can only see bouncepad shield, his aN1, aF2, or aU2. Now obviously, even if they would take priority over Fat Princess's aN1, I can see that they are punishable.

I hope this is of some use Ginta.
I should go.
#4EternuxPosted 12/28/2013 1:25:01 PM
Dante's vacuum jab
PSN Eternux
#5Cannon_SamPosted 12/28/2013 1:57:26 PM
Kratos's u1 as Sweet Tooth. Not sure if this is possible to deal with or not. xD
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#6Potatoman622Posted 12/28/2013 4:10:35 PM
Cannon_Sam posted...
Kratos's u1 as Sweet Tooth. Not sure if this is possible to deal with or not. xD

Realistically there aren't many things ST can do vs. this. Kratos is a terrible mu for ST because moves like u1 simply outrange all of STs pokes, particularly his air d2.

The best way to punish u1 is to short hop air dodge into him and grab. However that can be be punished with a grab if kratos predicts on. Which also unfortunately leads to a burst.
Dabess Tooth
PSN: Potatoman622
#7Potatoman622Posted 12/29/2013 1:05:36 AM
Ginta2468 posted...
FP a.N1 as Sackboy.

Yeah agree pretty much with the above. I don't think any of Sacks attacks can beat it which is why the mu is so bad. Air n1 causes FP to stone fall, which can be taken advantage of.

Best option for sack I'd say is bait it, air dodge. and grab her for a combo/ kill confirm.
Dabess Tooth
PSN: Potatoman622
#8DreoreSilere(Topic Creator)Posted 12/29/2013 2:40:34 AM(edited)
Eternux posted...
Dante's vacuum jab

The main strength of Dante's N1 comes from his ability to convert it - and anything that leads into his jab - into a full combo or kill fairly consistently. Now the other thing that makes it strong is that it has 8 frames of start-up, making it among the fast melee jabs in the game. In terms of reward, it is matched by Kat's N1, since hers has the same start-up and also leads into a plethora of combos and kill confirms.

Now, from what I'm gathering from the 1.10 patch data, we can assume that jumping has 10 frames of start-up. This means Dante's "vacuum jab" does legitimately catch the start-up frames of jumping, like all other 8-frame jabs. This is exacerbated by online lag, and since netcode doesn't allow you to buffer a jump by holding X, it most likely won't register your jump at all before it's too late anyway.

So if Dante has you in Knockdown or in his block mix-ups, you are at frame disadvantage, and thus, as against all other melee characters with good block mix-ups, your options are reduced. So while jumping is a necessary option to avoid Dante's crumple reaction and his empty cancel confirm, you must take care not to jump when Dante catches you at point-blank range. Even if he's up to 3 squares away, he can angel dash and catch you in his jab. So be sure not to be fooled by his short jab range, as it can be extended by his dash. I know I myself have a habit of trying to jump out of Kat or Dante's mix-ups and getting caught in jab anyway.

So my method of dealing with Dante's jab is this:

1. When approaching Dante, do stay aerial.
2. When trying to punish a decent Dante, rely on whiff punishes rather than block punishes, as his pistols allow him to cover himself on block.
3. Do not attempt to jump when in blockstun or in Knockdown unless you know for sure Dante will not be able to jab you in time.

Cannon_Sam posted...
Kratos's u1 as Sweet Tooth. Not sure if this is possible to deal with or not. xD

Kratos's U1, like most of his square moves aside from F1, are unpunishable on block by most of the cast. Furthermore, Kratos can set-up short-hop air-dodge traps with his jab strings, making air-dodging and grabbing possibly the only effective way to deal with his U1. When fighting Kratos, remember that none of his jab string options (aside from his simple N111 which any good Kratos shouldn't normally use anyway) are punishable on block. So instead of blocking, you want to make Kratos whiff.

Like potatoman said, I don't think Sweet Tooth has many options to deal with Kratos's range. The only thing Sweet Tooth may be able to consistently land from an air-dodge is his grab due to it being perhaps his safest grounded option. Because Sweet Tooth doesn't have a good ground moveset, he relies on his aN1 and aD1 for oki. However, these are clearly outranged by Kratos's U1, meaning they will most likely never land if Kratos is grounded. If you can, only use Sweet Tooth's aerials if Kratos is aerial too because obviously Kratos can only access his U1 while grounded. Otherwise, you have to respect his range and air-dodge when necessary.
I should go.
#9bc1910Posted 12/29/2013 4:15:19 AM
Great post, but remember Dante's jab has 9 frames of startup. It can't punish moves that are -8 on block like Raiden's as3.
#10CommittedCometPosted 12/29/2013 4:42:21 AM
Dreore I have a few questions about your Dante explanation above.

Do you know how jump air dodges work on wakeup or otherwise? How fast can they be initiated? Can they only be done after the 10 start-up frames of the jump or are they already registered before this?

Last time I faced Eternux I was able to jump air dodge out of his hard knockdowns just about every time (he uses Dante) but if what you are saying is true then technically a meaty jab should prevent this. I can't remember if he was going for them or not though.

Even in general I thought jump air dodging against hard knockdowns was an almost broken option but once again, based what you have said, any character should be able to punish it if they time their attack so it's initiated just as I'm waking up (also known as a meaty) because it should technically catch the wakeup frames of a jump UNLESS the air dodge comes out first.