Remember in MW2 when....

#221BrownPackPosted 11/28/2012 12:27:54 PM
Here's the difference between MW2 and BO.

Facts:

-MW2 has the best netcoding, hit detection, graphics, and overall engine.
-BO has a worse netcoding, hit detection, graphics, and overall engine.

Everything else, including balance, is up for debate, and is all preference. But the fact that MW2 runs better, which is the bare minimum, automatically gives it a HUGE advantage since netcoding. hit detection and engine are the most important things outside of the game's gameplay mechanics.
#222TimandEricPosted 11/28/2012 12:30:29 PM
shotguns as secondaries completely broke gun-balance, seeing as it made an entire class obsolete outside of one gun (SMGs and the UMP) and was really the only CQC weapon that could effectively combat another already broken perk combo, MLC knifers.


Knifers have a counter - shotguns. Shotguns are available to everyone. Even so not everyone has shotguns so MLx is still viable on some maps. They can do okay, but it's rare to see a MLx guy with all the kills and no deaths. It's a playable class but not an unbeatable one.


So I love how you take the time to quote my post, which clearly details that the ridiculously powerful shotgun secondaries were the only way to consistently counter MLC knifers, and then proceed to say the same exact thing? Two wrongs don't make a right, and two broken game mechanics don't cancel each other out. Yes, shotguns are available as secondaries for everyone............that's the problem genius...
#223BrownPackPosted 11/28/2012 12:37:16 PM
TimandEric posted...
shotguns as secondaries completely broke gun-balance, seeing as it made an entire class obsolete outside of one gun (SMGs and the UMP) and was really the only CQC weapon that could effectively combat another already broken perk combo, MLC knifers.


Knifers have a counter - shotguns. Shotguns are available to everyone. Even so not everyone has shotguns so MLx is still viable on some maps. They can do okay, but it's rare to see a MLx guy with all the kills and no deaths. It's a playable class but not an unbeatable one.


So I love how you take the time to quote my post, which clearly details that the ridiculously powerful shotgun secondaries were the only way to consistently counter MLC knifers, and then proceed to say the same exact thing? Two wrongs don't make a right, and two broken game mechanics don't cancel each other out. Yes, shotguns are available as secondaries for everyone............that's the problem genius...


I still don't understand the problem with shotguns as a secondary. On paper, yeah, it might be a little outrageous to have two primary weapons, but in practice, it's just fine. Barely anyone switches back and forth between their primary and their shotgun. Usually shotgun users keep their shotgun out until they die, which is almost like the shotgun is the only gun they have.

Hell, after the release of BO, and MW3, people who came back to MW2 really appreciate how well shotguns work, so they tend to use them only as primaries.
#224TimandEricPosted 11/28/2012 1:03:17 PM
BrownPack posted...
TimandEric posted...
shotguns as secondaries completely broke gun-balance, seeing as it made an entire class obsolete outside of one gun (SMGs and the UMP) and was really the only CQC weapon that could effectively combat another already broken perk combo, MLC knifers.


Knifers have a counter - shotguns. Shotguns are available to everyone. Even so not everyone has shotguns so MLx is still viable on some maps. They can do okay, but it's rare to see a MLx guy with all the kills and no deaths. It's a playable class but not an unbeatable one.


So I love how you take the time to quote my post, which clearly details that the ridiculously powerful shotgun secondaries were the only way to consistently counter MLC knifers, and then proceed to say the same exact thing? Two wrongs don't make a right, and two broken game mechanics don't cancel each other out. Yes, shotguns are available as secondaries for everyone............that's the problem genius...


I still don't understand the problem with shotguns as a secondary. On paper, yeah, it might be a little outrageous to have two primary weapons, but in practice, it's just fine. Barely anyone switches back and forth between their primary and their shotgun. Usually shotgun users keep their shotgun out until they die, which is almost like the shotgun is the only gun they have.

Hell, after the release of BO, and MW3, people who came back to MW2 really appreciate how well shotguns work, so they tend to use them only as primaries.


Well I think you just made my point then. Shotguns in MW2 were essentially primary weapons in the secondary weapon slot, and you don't see a problem with that? Why would people slap an SMG as their primary when they have a secondary gun that trumps everything at close and close-medium range? It was essentially having the Overkill perk on every class without any drawbacks. It made the sniper/shotty and AR/shotty classes dominant, because it covered all the bases. You had a "do it all" class that destroyed any balance between gun types. That's not the way it should be. Before that, you had to choose your playstyle based on what gun class you setup. For example, I would put an SMG to run and gun and dominate at close range, but at longer and medium ranges, an AR user would almost always trump an SMG user. In MW2, a sniper class could dominate at BOTH long and short ranges. There's a reason why they haven't had shottys as secondaries since then...
#225StonedwolfedPosted 11/28/2012 1:39:23 PM
Shotguns in MW2 are not primary weapons because, mostly, the maps are so large. They become primary on very small maps in in confined areas, but for the most part you don't see people running around with them on most maps.

Even so, I don't think shotguns are even the best secondary. I'm an M93 Raffica silenced man. Those things are insane. Ammo efficient. Almost invisible bullet trails. An M16 in the hand.

But like the shotguns they don't have the sheer range of primary weapons... and in MW2 that's important because many of the maps are very large.
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GT viberunner - MW2 Legend - now with added microphone technology
#226BrownPackPosted 11/28/2012 1:59:47 PM
TimandEric posted...

Well I think you just made my point then. Shotguns in MW2 were essentially primary weapons in the secondary weapon slot, and you don't see a problem with that? Why would people slap an SMG as their primary when they have a secondary gun that trumps everything at close and close-medium range? It was essentially having the Overkill perk on every class without any drawbacks. It made the sniper/shotty and AR/shotty classes dominant, because it covered all the bases. You had a "do it all" class that destroyed any balance between gun types. That's not the way it should be. Before that, you had to choose your playstyle based on what gun class you setup. For example, I would put an SMG to run and gun and dominate at close range, but at longer and medium ranges, an AR user would almost always trump an SMG user. In MW2, a sniper class could dominate at BOTH long and short ranges. There's a reason why they haven't had shottys as secondaries since then...


No, I don't, because shotgun users ONLY used shotguns. They hardly switched in between. And Shotgun users do not easily trump SMG users. Shotguns have flaws. They aren't perfect, even at CQC. People use SMG's for their mobility, and the rather faster TTK compared to some ARs.

Shotguns were great secondaries, but weren't the best. and they didn't really trump SMG's. Shotguns had a balance within each other, and compared to SMG's, they were balanced. Here's the spectrum of how shotguns perform. I'm not going to include the Model 1887 because it's been nerfed to the point where it performs like a novelty weapon much like the F2000.

Range
Spas-12
M1014
Striker
AA-12
Rangers
Rate of Fire

Shotguns with range hugely sacrifice rate of fire. If someone with a Spas went up against an SMG user and missed their first shot, chances are they wouldn't live to tell the tale.

Now, if an SMG user went up against a Ranger user at very close range, chances are the Ranger user would win. but remember, that's at very close range only.

Sniper Shotty classes? People generally try to quickscope. If not, they usually just stick to their shotgun. Not many people even knew when to time their weapon swaps. Lots of times weapon swaps result in death because of the long draw time. Yeah, a sniper/shotty class can dominate at long and short ranges, but it isn't for sure.

And no, that's not the reason shotguns haven't been secondaries since then. The reason for that is because people complained so much about deaths that they deserved (but argued that they didn't). Because of that, shotguns have ALSO been weakened as well. If shotguns were simply just made into secondaries, but were still as powerful as MW2's, then you'd be absolutely right.

Even if the "balance" might've been "thrown out" because of shotguns, I still have never seen another CoD where the shotguns have gotten such great usage. At least in MW2, they get action. in other games, they are terribly outclassed.
#227BrownPackPosted 11/28/2012 2:03:10 PM
Stonedwolfed posted...
Shotguns in MW2 are not primary weapons because, mostly, the maps are so large. They become primary on very small maps in in confined areas, but for the most part you don't see people running around with them on most maps.

Even so, I don't think shotguns are even the best secondary. I'm an M93 Raffica silenced man. Those things are insane. Ammo efficient. Almost invisible bullet trails. An M16 in the hand.

But like the shotguns they don't have the sheer range of primary weapons... and in MW2 that's important because many of the maps are very large.


This. Another thing to note as well is that MW2 has some of the largest maps in the series.
#228TimandEricPosted 11/28/2012 2:41:00 PM
BrownPack posted...
TimandEric posted...

.


No, I don't, because shotgun users ONLY used shotguns. They hardly switched in between. And Shotgun users do not easily trump SMG users. Shotguns have flaws. They aren't perfect, even at CQC. People use SMG's for their mobility, and the rather faster TTK compared to some ARs.

Shotguns were great secondaries, but weren't the best. and they didn't really trump SMG's. Shotguns had a balance within each other, and compared to SMG's, they were balanced. Here's the spectrum of how shotguns perform. I'm not going to include the Model 1887 because it's been nerfed to the point where it performs like a novelty weapon much like the F2000.

Range
Spas-12
M1014
Striker
AA-12
Rangers
Rate of Fire

Shotguns with range hugely sacrifice rate of fire. If someone with a Spas went up against an SMG user and missed their first shot, chances are they wouldn't live to tell the tale.

Now, if an SMG user went up against a Ranger user at very close range, chances are the Ranger user would win. but remember, that's at very close range only.

Sniper Shotty classes? People generally try to quickscope. If not, they usually just stick to their shotgun. Not many people even knew when to time their weapon swaps. Lots of times weapon swaps result in death because of the long draw time. Yeah, a sniper/shotty class can dominate at long and short ranges, but it isn't for sure.

And no, that's not the reason shotguns haven't been secondaries since then. The reason for that is because people complained so much about deaths that they deserved (but argued that they didn't). Because of that, shotguns have ALSO been weakened as well. If shotguns were simply just made into secondaries, but were still as powerful as MW2's, then you'd be absolutely right.

Even if the "balance" might've been "thrown out" because of shotguns, I still have never seen another CoD where the shotguns have gotten such great usage. At least in MW2, they get action. in other games, they are terribly outclassed.


Sorry man, but you're doing a terrible job trying to prove your point. You just contradicted yourself again it seems, I simply bolded the obvious ones I felt needed to be addressed. First and foremost, the notion that shotguns were somehow less useful because of "weapon draw time" is laughable. 1. It's called Sleight of Hand Pro (lightning quick weapon swaps) and 2. The stupidity of a player to "not know when to draw their close range weapon" isn't a counter to shotguns, it's just that.....a stupid player. The fact that you try and present this as a legitimate counter point is really grasping at straws. You can't deny that shotguns were strong primaries (not to mention the strongest in any CoD game), this is something you have even agreed with, so I really don't understand why you keep defending the fact that a primary power close range weapon was "fine" in the secondary slot. The fact that they nerfed shottys in subsequent games is irrelevant, we are talking in the context of MW2 here, and in that game, shotguns were the top tier close range weapons, and had no business being a secondary weapon. And that brings me to the last bolded point, one which seems to be the basis of your whole argument. The fact that you admit at the end that "balance might've been thrown out" justifies what I have been saying the entire time, and is really the only thing that needed to be said. I get it, you like MW2, but you're using excuses to justify why you liked the game. Shotgun secondaries broke gun balance. Just because you found them "fun" doesn't mean that they weren't overpowered as secondaries......they were
#229StonedwolfedPosted 11/28/2012 3:02:35 PM
TimandEric posted...
Sorry man, but you're doing a terrible job trying to prove your point. You just contradicted yourself again it seems, I simply bolded the obvious ones I felt needed to be addressed. First and foremost, the notion that shotguns were somehow less useful because of "weapon draw time" is laughable. 1. It's called Sleight of Hand Pro (lightning quick weapon swaps)


Have you actually played the game you're waxing lyrical about and calling other players "terrible" about?

Slight of Hand decreases reload time.
Slight of Hand Pro decreases ADS time.

That's it.

No Perk in MW2 affects weapons swap speed. This helps keep pistols viable for Sniper users.


and 2. The stupidity of a player to "not know when to draw their close range weapon" isn't a counter to shotguns, it's just that.....a stupid player.


No, the fact is if you're being over-run then there is a time delay between a non-CQC primary and switching to the shot-gun, especially with MW2's high-lethality weapons.


The fact that you try and present this as a legitimate counter point is really grasping at straws.


No, he knows the game and the perks.


You can't deny that shotguns were strong primaries (not to mention the strongest in any CoD game)


I can. Shotguns are not viable primaries in MW2 because the maps are too large. They are great secondaries however.


The fact that they nerfed shottys in subsequent games is irrelevant, we are talking in the context of MW2 here, and in that game, shotguns were the top tier close range weapons, and had no business being a secondary weapon.


Yes they did. And yes they do. Even as powerful as they are I see pistols all the time (because of the weapon-swap speed advantage), I see launcher weapons all the time, I see machine pistols being used (as they out-range shotguns), and I mainly see primary weapons being used.

Shotguns are the only COD game whey you do see them, but they do not have saturation of use - a good indicator they are, unlike other COD games, correctly balanced.
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GT viberunner - MW2 Legend - now with added microphone technology
#230StonedwolfedPosted 11/28/2012 3:02:51 PM
TimandEric posted...
And that brings me to the last bolded point, one which seems to be the basis of your whole argument. The fact that you admit at the end that "balance might've been thrown out" justifies what I have been saying the entire time, and is really the only thing that needed to be said. I get it, you like MW2, but you're using excuses to justify why you liked the game. Shotgun secondaries broke gun balance. Just because you found them "fun" doesn't mean that they weren't overpowered as secondaries......they were


Rubbish. The sort of argument I'd expect from someone who doesn't even know the Perks of the game. If shotguns were over-powered you'd see them more often than you do. Yes, they are common. But so too are pistols. Machine pistols. SMGs. ARs. LMGs. Snipers.

They are correctly balanced. As primary weapons they would see no use in the game.
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GT viberunner - MW2 Legend - now with added microphone technology