Remember in MW2 when....

#261Faust_8Posted 11/29/2012 3:39:08 AM
1) To use that as justification for "shotguns were balanced as secondaries" doesn't work though. Just because you know SOME how forgo that advantage on purpose.

2) You can't properly "experience" how other people do that. Again, unless you sit there and watch the killfeed all game, you really have no idea how much people are using their primary versus secondary weapons. I may quote my stats/experience with using a certain gun to counter someone saying it's outclassed all the time, but that's a big difference from saying I know how many times people press Y. Because I'm talking about me here. I know what I do because I'm doing it. Do you really have an accurate sample of what weapons all your enemies are using? You only see it when they kill you, not when they kill your team mates, and you're not even going to remember fully your all you killcams anyway.

Basically your experience is contradicting what most people experienced. And since your experience is inherently more subjective than personal anecdotes (because these are LESS than personal) it's just weak.
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#262StonedwolfedPosted 11/29/2012 6:01:20 AM
BrownPack posted...
What reasoning supports it? Personal experience. Videos online. That good enough for you?


Videos online suggest most MW2 players are spinning trickshotters.

I play MW2 most days, certainly several times a week. The vast, overwhelming majority of kills I see are from primary weapons. The odd SPAS-12. The occasional AA-12 sweeper. Sometimes someone running around with Rangers Akimbo. Some pistol kills from a guy in a ghillie suit. And of course the odd RPG whore.

But they're rare.

Almost every kill in this game comes from primaries. This tells me secondaries are not over-powered.
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#263StonedwolfedPosted 11/29/2012 6:03:41 AM
Valerium posted...
Ah these people, the people that praise MW2 and conviently ignore the 500 problems that game had. Unbalanced or straight up broken perks, the dumb attachment unlock system, the MANY unbalanced weapons the many glitches.


No Perk is broken. One combination is unbalanced OMA with DC.

The attachment unlock system is a legacy of MW and I like it. It means you have to get kills to get the unlocks. Mostly they're fairly quick to get through. The SMG FMJ challenges are by far the worst. But 40 FMJ kills on an AR or LMG should happen in about eight matches - entirely reasonable.

There are no unbalanced weapons. There are some that could use a buff, especially some of the LMGs, but none that are overpowered.
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#264DutchZombiePosted 11/29/2012 6:10:27 AM
I have to back up Brownpack here Faust.
If people forego shotguns on purpose that means they think they can do better without them. That's not an argument for why shotgun secondaries are bad. That's just their choice and if they can't make it work then it's their bad.

As far as switching weapons go. Shotguns have some of the slowest swap times in MW2 which balances them out nicely. For the majority, they will switch out their primary when entering buildings and be left at the mercy of specialists like SMG's, MLC or dedicated shotgun users.

From a common sense perspective, Brownpack's assertion that a dedicated shotgun user could use it as a primary the entire match is not wrong. The maps, perks and range of the shotguns all support that particular playstyle.

I think that's the most divisive thing about MW2. The fact that it supported so many alternate strategies. Some people loved the challenge of facing off against so many different tactics while many couldn't handle it. It doesn't make the game "broken" like so many claim.
#265homiegangstaPosted 11/29/2012 6:34:46 AM
I still to this day only play MW2 :)
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#266Faust_8Posted 11/29/2012 1:05:52 PM
Since when was I saying shotguns weren't good enough to use as primaries? I in fact argued the exact opposite earlier. They're the best shotguns of the series, OF COURSE they're primary-worthy.

I'm just arguing against the notion that tons of people equipped shotguns and then never used their primary weapon during the match. It's literally the smartest thing to do, but BP insists tons of players only equipped shotguns to use just the shotgun, as if forgetting what the primary slot is for. And as if the ARs weren't extremely good, and many of the maps being extremely AR-friendly.

Not to mention the AA-12 and Rangers were not as primary-like as the rest. With their shorter ranges (and the AA12's dependence on Scavenger, meaning no Marathon) they benefited the most from assault rifle/UMP/sniper primaries to back them up. While it was possible to main those two, it wasn't as easy as the rest.

Even if you make a class with the shotgun most in mind, it's not as if whatever primary you pick would never have a use on that class. Even with Marathon, CB/LW/SP, and whichever third Perk you pick to best help your shotgun, pretty much any AR or the UMP can help you any time you can't cross open ground to use the shotgun.

There was never a time when I didn't use a shotgun and a primary in tandem. To do so is like equipping Overkill and then only using one of the weapons.

I've done SCAR and AA-12 with Scavenger, FAMAS and SPAS with Marathon, UMP and Rangers with Marathon, FAL and Rangers with Sleight of Hand, LMGs with the Striker, silenced ARs with silenced Striker, snipers with M1014...with each class both weapons complemented each other and made me deadly at practically all ranges.

Slow swap times was a non-issue. MW2 wasn't plagued with bad maps and spawns so it's not like you could easily get shot in the back while you swapped weapons unless you were unaware of your surroundings. The swap times weren't much different than the reload times, and I think it's safe to say we were able to reload without dying during it. I and many others easily swapped to our shotguns before turning corners to waste someone with it. Machine Pistols had slow swap times (sans Raffica) and did no one use those for CQB situations?
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The supernatural says that if you act a certain way you might avoid suffering. But reality says you came from the stars...
#267DutchZombiePosted 11/29/2012 1:47:12 PM
So many problems with your post Faust.

For one, I think BP was arguing that players used shotguns as a primary and whatever was equipped in the primary slot as a back up.

I would also argue that the maps in MW2 were good for ANY weapon class not just AR's. AR's are just the most well rounded overall.

With maps like Favela and Scrapyard you could run around in all day without even thinking about using your primary and that's without throwing things like MLN or tac inserts in the mix.

Saying that ignoring your primary is like equipping overkill and then not using it is a nonsensical argument. It's not like anybody had a choice to not equip a primary if they wanted to use the shotgun only. I've had plenty of classes where I picked my weapon solely for the mobility bonus and that's it. Using the Vector with a Spas might seem like a bad idea, but if you don't use it enough to ever run out of ammo then it's not really a big deal.

Speaking as a player who primarily used the MP5k during MW2, swap times were most certainly an issue. My play style primarily consisted of catching players off guard while entering buildings or zone where they would switch weapons. It was very effective considering players like to switch weapons before turning corners and such. In a fast paced game like MW2, timing is everything.

Considering they're have been loads of topics over the years of people getting killed while reloading, I wouldn't say that's safe to say at all.

In short Faust, I respectfully disagree with damn near everything you said.
#268no1oblivionfanPosted 11/29/2012 1:52:21 PM
MW2 did have a s*** load of problems more than any other CoD, but it's the CoD I had most fun with. And I have no idea why, it's not nostalgia either..
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#269Faust_8Posted 11/29/2012 4:07:33 PM
DutchZombie posted...
For one, I think BP was arguing that players used shotguns as a primary and whatever was equipped in the primary slot as a back up.


That's still not completely true though. Of course some did. But not enough to just ignore criticism of secondary shotguns. Besides, just by saying that you can use the shotgun as your main weapon ALREADY is an argument that they should have just been primaries to begin with.

I would also argue that the maps in MW2 were good for ANY weapon class not just AR's. AR's are just the most well rounded overall.

With maps like Favela and Scrapyard you could run around in all day without even thinking about using your primary and that's without throwing things like MLN or tac inserts in the mix.


And I didn't disagree? I said the maps were AR friendly, not the nothing else worked as well. What I mean is, take MW3 and BO2--those are SMG friendly. You can use other weapons but SMGs are most catered for. MW2 maps however are bigger, meaning SMGs (not named UMP) don't find it so easy. You need skill to use them right in all the maps. Thus it's more AR friendly.

Basically any CoD is AR friendly unless it has garbage tiny maps like MW3 and BO2. But plenty of MW2 maps allow for literally any weapon because they're not all one thing. They have wide spaces and tight spaces. You could play either or both.

Saying that ignoring your primary is like equipping overkill and then not using it is a nonsensical argument. It's not like anybody had a choice to not equip a primary if they wanted to use the shotgun only. I've had plenty of classes where I picked my weapon solely for the mobility bonus and that's it. Using the Vector with a Spas might seem like a bad idea, but if you don't use it enough to ever run out of ammo then it's not really a big deal.


To tell you the truth I kind of forgot that your movement was dictated by your primary in MW2, at least part of the time I did. But it's still pretty moot if you're only using the shotgun for tight areas and your primary for anything else.

But again, all you're doing is saying that SOME players used SOME classes as dedicated shotgun classes, which I never disagreed with. BP is saying that's far more common than it really is though. In my experience I saw few dedicated shotgun classes that didn't have the SPAS. Anything else, they used both weapons.
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#270Faust_8Posted 11/29/2012 4:07:50 PM
Speaking as a player who primarily used the MP5k during MW2, swap times were most certainly an issue. My play style primarily consisted of catching players off guard while entering buildings or zone where they would switch weapons. It was very effective considering players like to switch weapons before turning corners and such. In a fast paced game like MW2, timing is everything.


I never said swap times were completely inconsequential--just use the WA2000. I never used any secondary on it besides the Raffica or pistol because of how long it took anything else to be ready. But to say that it completely prevents you from using a primary and a shotgun together in the same match is really pushing it. The matches weren't so hectic that I couldn't find the 2 seconds to pause before going inside. Hell, I've reloaded LMGs without being bothered hundreds of times. Sometimes I even walk around while doing it.

Considering they're have been loads of topics over the years of people getting killed while reloading, I wouldn't say that's safe to say at all.


Naturally that does happen to us...but people made topics about it? Really? Where? Wouldn't every comment be "use Sleight of Hand/Fast Mags" or "stop being a compulsive reloader"?

Of course we all sometimes die reloading. But to a good player that doesn't happen unless mistakes are made or the group they're attacking is just too big. And of course sometimes I'd die switching weapons. But that's not the norm, at least for good players. We didn't try doing it while in a firefight, we paused before entering an area.

In short Faust, I respectfully disagree with damn near everything you said.


Well it appears that some of what you disagree is something I never said. :/
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The supernatural says that if you act a certain way you might avoid suffering. But reality says you came from the stars...