Think I ran into a bug

#11R of The NestPosted 7/10/2012 11:10:10 PM
In Magic, if neither the rules text nor the reminder text says "target", it doesn't target. Takenuma's chaos ability specifically targets a creature of your choice--it does not target a player. Hence, if your only creature has shroud, you have no legal targets and the effect would be countered. Also, if you (as in the player) were to have shroud, you would still have to target a creature, as I've said: Takenuma does not target the player.

It is currently functioning as though it says "choose a creature" rather than "target creature". TC is correct--it's not coded properly.
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#12final_lapPosted 7/10/2012 11:20:56 PM
"If the choice of which creature is returned is up to the player then its targeting the player."\

This is incorrect. Something doesn't target the player unless it specifically says it targets a player/opponent. It's possible for a card to read "each player chooses a creature he or she controls" in which case no player is being targeted.

"If it says "target creature", which it does, it has to target a creature."

This is absolutely correct. If something says "target creature" it is targeting a creature, if it says "target player" it is targeting a player. Of course, something can target both a creature and a player (e.g. "2 damage to target creature, and 2 damage to target player") as well as neither. (e.g. "each player sacrifices a creature")

"No it DOES target you. YOU are the one picking the creature. This is exactly how innocent blood works in Obedient Dead. That card forces you to sacrifice a creature. Even if that creature had shroud or hexproof, because you CHOOSE it, it is gone. Same thing here. You choose to return this creature."

Innocent Blood does not target players nor creatures. While it may be true that Innocent Blood can be used to force an opponent to sacrifice a creature with Shroud or Hexproof (because Innocent Blood doesn't target creatures) it doesn't target players either. Innocent Blood targets nothing.

For instance, in Duels 2013 the Peacekeepers deck has a card named Spirit of the Hearth. (4WW 4/5 flying) It reads "you have Hexproof"
Despite this ability, it is still vulnerable to Innocent Blood.
#13resultsmayvary8Posted 7/11/2012 12:38:43 AM
R of The Nest posted...
In Magic, if neither the rules text nor the reminder text says "target", it doesn't target. Takenuma's chaos ability specifically targets a creature of your choice--it does not target a player. Hence, if your only creature has shroud, you have no legal targets and the effect would be countered. Also, if you (as in the player) were to have shroud, you would still have to target a creature, as I've said: Takenuma does not target the player.

It is currently functioning as though it says "choose a creature" rather than "target creature". TC is correct--it's not coded properly.


I'm going to acquiesce that you are indeed correct. It should force the return for hexproof but not for shroud. Sometimes the nuances between the two throw me.
#14KrondornPosted 7/11/2012 6:42:16 AM
I found a new one last night. I used Rite of Replication on a creature with undying. All of my copies had undying, but none of them revived properly upon death. That bug cost me the game.
#15megamaster125Posted 7/11/2012 7:17:52 AM
Krondorn posted...
I found a new one last night. I used Rite of Replication on a creature with undying. All of my copies had undying, but none of them revived properly upon death. That bug cost me the game.


That's not a bug. Rite of Replication creates tokens. Whenever tokens leave the field, be it bounce, exile, destroyed, etc., they are gone from existence. They don't exist in your hand, they don't exist in the graveyard. Once they hit the graveyard, they dissappear immediately.
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#16KrondornPosted 7/11/2012 8:53:25 AM(edited)
megamaster125 posted...
Krondorn posted...
I found a new one last night. I used Rite of Replication on a creature with undying. All of my copies had undying, but none of them revived properly upon death. That bug cost me the game.


That's not a bug. Rite of Replication creates tokens. Whenever tokens leave the field, be it bounce, exile, destroyed, etc., they are gone from existence. They don't exist in your hand, they don't exist in the graveyard. Once they hit the graveyard, they disappear immediately.

That's kind of my point. Tokens DO go to the graveyard before they are removed from the game. Other "sent to the graveyard" or "is destroyed" abilities trigger on tokens. Apparently, the problem here is that they can't be returned to play under any circumstances. That makes since in every situation except undying which states:

"When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it."

EDIT: Essentially, it's not a bug, but I feel like the game mechanics don't function appropriately in this situation. It's a bug with MTG rather than DotP.
#17megamaster125Posted 7/11/2012 8:55:41 AM
Krondorn posted...
megamaster125 posted...
Krondorn posted...
I found a new one last night. I used Rite of Replication on a creature with undying. All of my copies had undying, but none of them revived properly upon death. That bug cost me the game.


That's not a bug. Rite of Replication creates tokens. Whenever tokens leave the field, be it bounce, exile, destroyed, etc., they are gone from existence. They don't exist in your hand, they don't exist in the graveyard. Once they hit the graveyard, they dissappear immediately.

That's kind of my point. Tokens DO go to the graveyard before they are removed from the game. Other "sent to the graveyard" or "is destroyed" abilities trigger on tokens. Apparently, the problem here is that they can't be returned to play under any circumstances. That makes since in every situation except undying which states:

"When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it."


Well, that's not really a bug because that's how it's supposed to work. Yes, a token being destroyed would trigger something like Grave Pact. The reason it doesn't work with Undying is because a token touching the graveyard immediately disappears due to a state-based effect. When the undying tries to trigger, there's no creature in the graveyard to bring back. Tokens just sort of "tag" the graveyard, they don't remain their long enough for anything else to happen.
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There are no contradictions in the Bible. http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/
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#18Dujas(Topic Creator)Posted 7/11/2012 2:48:27 PM
megamaster is correct. Undying does trigger, but by the time it resolves, the creature no longer exists.

It would be interesting to see if it works properly if you try Cloning a creature with undying. Been a while since I looked at the rules, but I believe the Clone would come back and get to choose a new creature to copy.
#19R of The NestPosted 7/12/2012 11:52:04 PM
You are correct about Clone. It would return to the battlefield as a copy of a new creature of your choice with an additional +1/+1 counter on it. Come to think of it, that sounds like fun...
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"Ha! No spoony bard could spin a sweeter tale!"
- Wiegraf, Final Fantasy Tactics