Why would anyone choose Law or Chaos paths? *Series Spoilers*

#41BlueSophiaPosted 10/19/2012 8:15:08 PM
The only thing chaos promotes is uncertainty, an element that invalidates the right of choice. It is a poor substitute of true freedom.
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Ardha of the SMT IV board. :3
So much sodium against the WiiU!
#42EmbraceChaosPosted 10/19/2012 11:15:55 PM
BlueSophia posted...
EmbraceChaos posted...
Gin_Devil posted...
Arayziel posted...
Neutral is boring. I also like the way Nocturne handled alignments, where neutral isn't so great after all.


I thought the neutral ending was when you turn back time?


It's actually a very subtle "You're doomed" ending.

The final boss basically states he WILL murder you and THEN restart the cycle. The main character's happy end is actually a false ending. It's no surprise considering Aradia is actually the Goddess of Falsehoods and NOT Freedom.

Personally, I prefer Chaos. Neutral is both bland and a cop out. Nothing gets resolved and humanity going back to square one is always a yawnfest since it'll just happen again.

Law is basically just joining the extremists of actual religious institutions.


And that is exactly why you are not neutral. the mere fact that you see it as a copout is why you cannot comprehend its value.

The existence of Aradia is as a placebo and as a role, it is both freedom and flasehood at the same time because its value is in the beholder. The most defining aspect of this is in the structure of belief and conviction. It is not up to a god to create a path for you, you have to do it yourself. Aradia is certainly not going to help you, all she represents is the possible path to choose. The mere existence of her as a norm is to prove that there IS ALWAYS a choice.

For the most part, many games will feature a return to the norm ending, but with varying messages, but the most important of them is "you are on your own".

The best world is the one that is seized with ones own power and not shaped by someone else.


Bwahahahaha. More like presenting a choice and damning you regardless of any choice. That's all neutrality serves.

Aradia just gives false promises and the ending is a subtle "you're doomed" ending made to look happy. It's why Lucifer encourages you to stay strong after congratulating you for making your own choice in that very ending.

BlueSophia posted...
The only thing chaos promotes is uncertainty, an element that invalidates the right of choice. It is a poor substitute of true freedom.


Chaos is reality. Order is how people rationalize reality. Chaos isn't right/wrong nor good/bad. Chaos just is. Freedom is a state of mind.
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"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road - neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will."
#43Cheesepower5Posted 10/20/2012 4:37:03 AM
I don't really get Chaos. Is it an eternal sort of deal like Law, where it's all bloodshed, all the time? Or can I just sweep up all the demons and make a more progressive, human world over their corpses?

Because option 2 sounds both fun AND long-term preferable.
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Official Naga Raja of the SMT IV board.
#44Spektre41Posted 10/20/2012 9:01:54 AM
Why do you keep mentioning Aradia? She has nothing to do with the Freedom Ending.
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``Haggar could pile drive the sun into Galactus' face.`` - YoungLegend
#45BlueSophiaPosted 10/20/2012 12:12:21 PM
Chaos is neither reality nor is it the absolute, only the absence of rules. Even within a period with a lack of predefined concepts, there are and always will be rules that govern even the most minute of things. The meaning of our existence has been and always has been put down by us. If your choice is to become an agent of chaos, then you take it in its entirety, both good and bad.

But merely choosing a side does not grant you an understanding of the ramifications behind your alignment, only that you chose to follow a lawless society, one that is no more free than a worm has freedom in a bird's nest. If that is all you have, then you lack the conviction to truly be free.

Who ought to be the judge of yourself but you? What damnation is there if the path you forge is one that rejects both law and chaos? The only benefit is the one with which you wrought with your own hands.

In reality, all three are but aspects of id, ego and superego. The only condemnation for neutral come from those who believe it has no value and it is specifically because they do not see its value that they would choose chaos.Chaos does not promise freedom. What it promises is the sway of power and the fury of fortune.
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Ardha of the SMT IV board. :3
So much sodium against the WiiU!
#46EmbraceChaosPosted 10/20/2012 1:23:23 PM
Cheesepower5 posted...
I don't really get Chaos. Is it an eternal sort of deal like Law, where it's all bloodshed, all the time? Or can I just sweep up all the demons and make a more progressive, human world over their corpses?

Because option 2 sounds both fun AND long-term preferable.


We make a progressive half-human, half-demon society where we all get demon powers and live for power, sex, and thrills. :D

BlueSophia posted...
Chaos is neither reality nor is it the absolute, only the absence of rules. Even within a period with a lack of predefined concepts, there are and always will be rules that govern even the most minute of things. The meaning of our existence has been and always has been put down by us. If your choice is to become an agent of chaos, then you take it in its entirety, both good and bad.


Chaos is absolute reality. Anyone can go out an kill anyone else if they so choose. The only thing stopping them is laws and the fact that they obviously do NOT wish to live in such a society. That, however, only deters crime. It doesn't stop it.


But merely choosing a side does not grant you an understanding of the ramifications behind your alignment, only that you chose to follow a lawless society, one that is no more free than a worm has freedom in a bird's nest. If that is all you have, then you lack the conviction to truly be free.


You're only arguing the extremes.


Who ought to be the judge of yourself but you? What damnation is there if the path you forge is one that rejects both law and chaos? The only benefit is the one with which you wrought with your own hands.


Chaos by our own hands!


In reality, all three are but aspects of id, ego and superego. The only condemnation for neutral come from those who believe it has no value and it is specifically because they do not see its value that they would choose chaos.Chaos does not promise freedom. What it promises is the sway of power and the fury of fortune.


Name one human society that didn't commercially argue about it's interests through showing off or desiring to aspire to riches and fame within their society. The only alternatives have been regimes like communism which are totalitarian rules of Lawful Stupid.

Do you see the problem? Neutrality is weak. Chaos exists in everyone. I doubt there is a single person on the planet who didn't wish for riches or fame at some point in their lives. Don't even lie to yourself. It's entirely human to want more. It's not even a bad thing.
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"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road - neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will."
#47EmbraceChaosPosted 10/20/2012 2:03:29 PM
A fantastic quote by a great philosophical thinker and peaceful activist really puts this into prospective.

During Britain's negotiations with India when Gandhi was pushing Britain to leave...

"Lord Mountbatten, turned to Gandhi and said in exasperation: 'If we just leave, there will be chaos.' Gandhi replied: 'Yes, but it will be our chaos."

So you see, the Chaotic Evil nonsense is usually put too much attention on. Chaotic Good has, and probably will always, exist with peaceful demonstrations which are then attacked by Lawful Stupid authoritarian figures.

Oh, and Gandhi wasn't a holy man by any means. In fact, he was assassinated for speaking out against the Lawful Evil institutional hierarchy of Hinduism.
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"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road - neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will."
#48BlueSophiaPosted 10/20/2012 6:48:45 PM
We make a progressive half-human, half-demon society where we all get demon powers and live for power, sex, and thrills. :D

Baser human temptations and instincts. Undeveloped and superficial. No purpose but itself. Not a very good position.

Chaos is absolute reality. Anyone can go out an kill anyone else if they so choose. The only thing stopping them is laws and the fact that they obviously do NOT wish to live in such a society. That, however, only deters crime. It doesn't stop it.

The universe doesn't care for your petty criminals and individual aspirations. The only thing that it defines is potential and the ability to create new powers. If you cannot handle the difficulties of life, then that is on you. But the more people that chase the greater power, the greater the chance that humanity will grow above itself. Chaos is the farce of the living. Reason is the way to the future.


You're only arguing the extremes.

There are always extremes but this is funny coming from the guy that sees neutrality as an unmoving object.


Name one human society that didn't commercially argue about it's interests through showing off or desiring to aspire to riches and fame within their society. The only alternatives have been regimes like communism which are totalitarian rules of Lawful Stupid.

Why should I stoop to humanity? The path to the future is rising above such petty conflicts that you describe. Our history has been rife with cases of the few that try to rise up and seek a higher purpose. While the turmoil of rule went around, few would persevere to insure that the next generation had a better future. In an age of knowledge, the potential for these few to increase is greatly increased. Riches and fame pass with time. But our knowledge will accumulate over time.

Do you see the problem? Neutrality is weak. Chaos exists in everyone. I doubt there is a single person on the planet who didn't wish for riches or fame at some point in their lives. Don't even lie to yourself. It's entirely human to want more. It's not even a bad thing.

Chaos is the weakness in humans. The mere fact that you give in to such impulses is the reason why you see neutrality as weak. To err may be human. But persevere and you become something more. Chaos is the reason why mankind develops so slowly.
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Ardha of the SMT IV board. :3
So much sodium against the WiiU!
#49BlueSophiaPosted 10/20/2012 6:52:43 PM
EmbraceChaos posted...
A fantastic quote by a great philosophical thinker and peaceful activist really puts this into prospective.

During Britain's negotiations with India when Gandhi was pushing Britain to leave...

"Lord Mountbatten, turned to Gandhi and said in exasperation: 'If we just leave, there will be chaos.' Gandhi replied: 'Yes, but it will be our chaos."

So you see, the Chaotic Evil nonsense is usually put too much attention on. Chaotic Good has, and probably will always, exist with peaceful demonstrations which are then attacked by Lawful Stupid authoritarian figures.

Oh, and Gandhi wasn't a holy man by any means. In fact, he was assassinated for speaking out against the Lawful Evil institutional hierarchy of Hinduism.


The British occupied it based on greed and subjugation, making it lawful dark. In contrast, while Gandhi was making a point, his stance was true neutral. He was seeking the return to norm which means removing the Brits from power. True chaos comes from rioting, vigilantism and Open warfare. Chaos may have good intentions, but the means to the end are inefficient and counterintuitive in the long run. The very act you praise as chaos is an example of that which you mock, which is true neutral.
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Ardha of the SMT IV board. :3
So much sodium against the WiiU!
#50EmbraceChaosPosted 10/20/2012 9:43:52 PM
BlueSophia posted...
EmbraceChaos posted...
A fantastic quote by a great philosophical thinker and peaceful activist really puts this into prospective.

During Britain's negotiations with India when Gandhi was pushing Britain to leave...

"Lord Mountbatten, turned to Gandhi and said in exasperation: 'If we just leave, there will be chaos.' Gandhi replied: 'Yes, but it will be our chaos."

So you see, the Chaotic Evil nonsense is usually put too much attention on. Chaotic Good has, and probably will always, exist with peaceful demonstrations which are then attacked by Lawful Stupid authoritarian figures.

Oh, and Gandhi wasn't a holy man by any means. In fact, he was assassinated for speaking out against the Lawful Evil institutional hierarchy of Hinduism.


The British occupied it based on greed and subjugation, making it lawful dark. In contrast, while Gandhi was making a point, his stance was true neutral. He was seeking the return to norm which means removing the Brits from power. True chaos comes from rioting, vigilantism and Open warfare. Chaos may have good intentions, but the means to the end are inefficient and counterintuitive in the long run. The very act you praise as chaos is an example of that which you mock, which is true neutral.


Wrong. Gandhi's position was Chaotic-Good. Changing the Lawful-Stupid rules for the good of all. There WAS rioting after the British left. Everyone knew it would happen. Lawful-Stupid persevered with Islam versus Hinduism. Once religion is eradicated, we won't have Lawful-Stupid differences.

"Seeking a higher purpose" is just making up your own utopian vision and ignoring the pain of others.

Chaotic-Good > All.
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"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road - neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will."