Raikage vs Tsunade

#41Tactician_LordPosted 9/4/2012 9:14:29 PM
On Gaara`s speed: While Raikage was indeed in the air, it doesn`t mean his body won`t move as fast as it does in the air. What I mean with this is that his limbs retain the same speed, which means that his kick was going either at the same speed he used to move in the fight or a relatively close one. If it somehow were not the case (doubtful), then the argument still stands, as Gaara blocked the kick when it was inches from Sasuke`s body while a big image of the fight showed him nowhere near. When he did appear he appeared to be a relatively long distance from Raikage. As for the Jockey Boy, we don`t really know how fast it moves...and considering that Edo Raikage is faster than Ay the possibility that it could move faster than Ay too stands.

Though, another possibility I can give you is that Gaara`s reaction speed in the Ay vs Sasuke fight was created for the sole purpose of saving Sasuke, in other words a "cop-out" and after it his increase in speed was forgotten. But since we have no way of knowing if this one is right, I go with the "sand is faster than Ay" until shown otherwise.

Btw, this is something I hate about arguments, it takes paragraphs at times to counter a single sentence response. >_>

On the matter of keeping up with Ay: Yes, Sasuke had trouble keeping up Ay...and with Bee too...who was also moving at normal speed. This shows that the sharingan is not perfect at tracking opponents. It also doesn`t matter that Sasuke couldn`t keep up with him, as my argument pertained Tsunade being able to keep up with him.

http://www.mangareader .net/naruto/541/8

Yes, I see how normally you would look at it and think she just saw the end results (btw, I shouldn`t be posting a link XD), but take a look at how its drawn. The first panel on the right, they haven`t stopped. Look at both, the trail of smoke and the lightning trail...they are either still moving or trying to stop, either way Tsunade still implies she was able to see them.

On the matter of Tsunade`s chakra technique: What we know of it is that it concentrates chakra on a body part and releases it on the last moment for a boost in strength. Leg muscle is also strength and she was shown in the Oroochimaru fight to use to close gaps almost instantly, it makes sense in both ways, in how it works and in that a close range fighter figured a way to get close.

Its not just destructive power, but overall strength...even in the legs. It explains how she vanished from Orochimaru`s and Kabuto`s sight (for the moment she used the initial boost, later they saw where she was) when she has a measly 3 in speed stat (natural speed mind you, it doesn`t count techniques to increase it). It also explains why she was able to catch Manda while he was moving. She arrived from one end of the stage where they were fighting to where Manda was in an instant, only way to explain this is with how she uses chakra to enhance her strength.

Why I said she can reach and even surpass Ay in speed? (at least in hypothetically)

Because, the more chakra she concentrates in one limb...the stronger it becomes. This means that if she concentrates more chakra in her legs than Ay uses to move then she will have surpassed him in speed for said use only (as her chakra enhancement technique differs from Ay in that it isn`t constantly working. This is also why I said it would depend on her chakra levels...which we don`t know about (except that they are large enough to heal the entire village for prolonged periods of time). In theory, her enhancement technique (chakra gathering) can make her faster for a one time use only...but it depends on her chakra levels.
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#42Tactician_LordPosted 9/4/2012 9:14:36 PM
Its not like surpassing Ay`s level of speed is anything noteworthy. KCM Naruto was his match, with his new mode he is superior. Edo Raikage is faster, the other Kages lived in a period of war (see Oonoki living in a period of war when he still wasn`t a kage), which means the kage`s fought against each other (see Edo Mizukage and Edo Tsuchikage)...which in turn means they each must have had a chance to fight the Raikage at any given time and didn`t die from said fight. So they could all be faster than Ay.

On the finishing move: The reason I stated she can at least see him is because, unlike Sasuke, she has trained her entire life for the purpose of dodging enemy attacks. This means that, unlike Sasuke, she is an expert at dodging (should be). As for her regeneration? See the Madara fight. Madara mentions that Hashirama could revive himself (literally) without using seals, such was his regeneration...then Tsunade regenerates and Madara mentions that she too was doing the same.

This means that her regeneration also revives the user if they die in a fight...which in turn means that even if Ay manages to rip her head without she dodging even if a little...she still would comeback to life (we`ve seen Orochimaru regenerate broken limbs...and his regeneration is weaker than Tsunade`s). Until proven otherwise, Tsunades regeneration quite literally renders her unable to die in battle until it wears off. This, coupled with the things mentioned above means she can deal at the very least one hit to Ay...and one hit is all it takes (Tsunade is confirmed to be stronger than Ay), she even broke Susanoo which is the ultimate defense...Ay only did it to ribs Susanoo, his attacks failed on Madara`s.
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#43Tactician_LordPosted 9/4/2012 9:20:58 PM
There, ColonelChiken...I gave every single point a counter argument or an explanation. Darn, I really hope you read it...if you disagree with something we can either keep going at it or just leave it as a disagreement...now, as a favor, if you are going to argue something, do try to use something from the manga rather than the "I think" card.

Fudge, really hope you appreciate it as a "semblance of respect" as you called it.
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#44Moe_Lester_13Posted 9/4/2012 9:38:42 PM
Wait, did you honestly just say that Tsunade can move at levels to that equal to or greater than Raikage? Speed is one of the most inconsistent things in this series. Remember when Lee could move faster than the eye could see in the Chunin Exams? Anyone can now visually move at speeds where they dissapear.
But Raikages speed is noted to be second, only to Minato. Now Naruto too I guess. And its been stated many times that it is possible to track speed/keep up with someone, but unless you can actually react in time, then its useless. Yes, Tsunade has top level strength, more so than Raikage, but could she physically react to the speed of Raikage in his Lightning Shroud? No.
Now, could Raikage tear her head off if she activates her Regeneration tech? We arent sure. We havent seen enough of it. I guess we would have to wait until the Madara fight is over.

But to say she can move at the speed of Raikage is laughable.
#45Tactician_LordPosted 9/4/2012 9:44:28 PM
Moe_Lester_13 posted...
Wait, did you honestly just say that Tsunade can move at levels to that equal to or greater than Raikage? Speed is one of the most inconsistent things in this series. Remember when Lee could move faster than the eye could see in the Chunin Exams? Anyone can now visually move at speeds where they dissapear.
But Raikages speed is noted to be second, only to Minato. Now Naruto too I guess. And its been stated many times that it is possible to track speed/keep up with someone, but unless you can actually react in time, then its useless. Yes, Tsunade has top level strength, more so than Raikage, but could she physically react to the speed of Raikage in his Lightning Shroud? No.
Now, could Raikage tear her head off if she activates her Regeneration tech? We arent sure. We havent seen enough of it. I guess we would have to wait until the Madara fight is over.

But to say she can move at the speed of Raikage is laughable.


Nice refusal...now, care to seek evidence to prove it?

Also, I never said she moved at the speed Raikage moved...nice to know you actually read. I said she has the potential of making a move that is faster than Raikage (more chakra concentrated on a limb = faster and stronger limb. This isn`t even something I`m pulling from my ass, it was stated by Kakashi, it was Kakashi`s training to Team 7 and its stated as what Tsunade does...and thought Sakura how to do too)
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#46ColonelChikenPosted 9/5/2012 7:00:04 AM
Tactician_Lord posted...
There, ColonelChiken...I gave every single point a counter argument or an explanation. Darn, I really hope you read it...if you disagree with something we can either keep going at it or just leave it as a disagreement...now, as a favor, if you are going to argue something, do try to use something from the manga rather than the "I think" card.

Fudge, really hope you appreciate it as a "semblance of respect" as you called it.


Thank you very much. As a favor to you I will not use the "I think" card on this board, especially we have another debate. I usually say it because people have many differing opinions in topics like this and you can't truly be sure what Kishi was aiming for sometimes. As for the "semblace of respect" I feel I should apologize as that came off a little douchy and pretentious. Again I apologize.

On Gaara`s speed: While Raikage was indeed in the air, it doesn`t mean his body won`t move as fast as it does in the air. What I mean with this is that his limbs retain the same speed, which means that his kick was going either at the same speed he used to move in the fight or a relatively close one. If it somehow were not the case (doubtful), then the argument still stands, as Gaara blocked the kick when it was inches from Sasuke`s body while a big image of the fight showed him nowhere near. When he did appear he appeared to be a relatively long distance from Raikage. As for the Jockey Boy, we don`t really know how fast it moves...and considering that Edo Raikage is faster than Ay the possibility that it could move faster than Ay too stands.


The reason I said it wasn't a fair assessment is because he used a leg drop and not a downward kick. Which means he was using mostly gravity to do the job and not his own leg muscles. So at this point he was no longer using his own speed. And so, because he himself wasn't moving, it was simple for Gaara to just slip his sand in between both the Raikage and Sasuke as the Raikage was moving slower than he was when he was upright on solid ground.

As for Jokey Boy, his speed wasn't "that" impressive. Raikage's, Minato's, and Naruto's speed feats are drawn to be instantaneous. They leave one space and appear in another. Jokey Boy, on the other hand, while being able to evade Gaara's sand, he is still able to be perceived by the ninja on the battlefield. And as for Ay's father, the only thing he was noted for was his durability. The only thing noted about his speed was when Naruto noted that he was fast like Ay, not faster or even the same. He just mentioned that he know they are fast.

No point in arguing Tsunade's senses being able to keep up with Ay since we seem to have conflicting thoughts on how she saw that fight.

On the matter of Tsunade`s chakra technique: What we know of it is that it concentrates chakra on a body part and releases it on the last moment for a boost in strength. Leg muscle is also strength and she was shown in the Oroochimaru fight to use to close gaps almost instantly, it makes sense in both ways, in how it works and in that a close range fighter figured a way to get close.


Again, Orochimaru and even Kabuto were not surprised by this attack and casually dodged the kick(which was a downward kick I might add). Kabuto being at Kakashi's level and Orochimaru being severely crippled. On the Manda example, he threw the sword at Bunta, who dodged, and it landed behind him. And who was behind Bunta? Tsunade and that slug. So the blade couldn't have been that far from the battlefield.
#47ColonelChikenPosted 9/5/2012 7:28:11 AM(edited)
Its not like surpassing Ay`s level of speed is anything noteworthy. KCM Naruto was his match, with his new mode he is superior. Edo Raikage is faster, the other Kages lived in a period of war (see Oonoki living in a period of war when he still wasn`t a kage), which means the kage`s fought against each other (see Edo Mizukage and Edo Tsuchikage)...which in turn means they each must have had a chance to fight the Raikage at any given time and didn`t die from said fight. So they could all be faster than Ay.

That's actually quite the feat seeing as he was the closest person(according to him) to Minato in speed. KCM surpassing Raikage was actually quite the big deal as it shows Naruto finally attaining his father's levels of speed and becoming the next Yellow Flash. Also, in all of the wars that were explained in the manga, neither Kirigakure or Kumogakure were involved in any hostilities. Everytime we've seen Kumo start some s**t it has been against Kumo.

This means that her regeneration also revives the user if they die in a fight...which in turn means that even if Ay manages to rip her head without she dodging even if a little...she still would comeback to life (we`ve seen Orochimaru regenerate broken limbs...and his regeneration is weaker than Tsunade`s). Until proven otherwise, Tsunades regeneration quite literally renders her unable to die in battle until it wears off. This, coupled with the things mentioned above means she can deal at the very least one hit to Ay...and one hit is all it takes (Tsunade is confirmed to be stronger than Ay), she even broke Susanoo which is the ultimate defense...Ay only did it to ribs Susanoo, his attacks failed on Madara`s.

I'm not doubting her regenerative ability, I'm skeptical on her still being active during the period where her head is off and her head is fully regenerated. While she can quickly regenerate, there has to be a point where she is vulnerable to more damage as she has no should not have any control over her body until it is fully regenerated. If her brain is destroyed she has no signals being sent to her body until her brain is recovered. She should have problems in accordance to which part of the brain was destroyed and how much was destroyed. If her head was cut off, she won't have a body until it completely regenerates. That in itself will most likely take a LARGE portion of her chakra, if she is even able to complete the regeneration before dying of chakra exhaustion. In this scenario the brain is still intact and she regenerates from the neck down.

One hit will indeed end the Raikage, there is no arguing that. His best bet again would be to try and kill her before she activates her technique. But seeing, as it doesn't need seals to activate and that she can potentially keep up with his speed, that will be tough to achieve. If she gets to activate her technique, all he can do is try to wait for her to use up her chakra.
#48Knowledge_KingPosted 9/6/2012 5:48:24 PM
Raikage stomps. he is many, many times faster than her. If we go by the databook, she has a 7/10 in speed while Raikage is waaay faster than a 10/10 and as far as strength goes, he was able to match the 8 tails, and is stronger than Bee's lariat that blows off people's chest.

In fact nothing blunt has hurt him yet and chidori was unable to pierce him. Tsunade would need at least 6-7 hits to kill him as 1 or 2 didn't faze Oro, and I believe she even hit Kabuto once and he was fine.

She has no way to win. She's slower than base Kabuto who was slow enough for Naruto to react to him (ie. slower than Lee) and she's not strong enough for a one hit kill with Lightning Armor on. He roflstomps.
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