FFXIV ARR will inspire mmorpgs to be FFXIV ARR clones

#21zazz9Posted 2/22/2013 4:24:36 AM
TaintedSeraphim posted...
Here's a simple analogy that might make the irrelevance of payment amounts more clear to you:

Suppose I'm running a hotdog stand. One guy comes up and buys a regular hotdog with ketchup and mustard. He pays $4.99. The next guy in line buys a supreme hotdog with ketchup, mustard, relish, and onions. He pays $5.50. Another guy then comes over and buys a plain hotdog with no condiments whatsoever. He pays $4.50.

How many people have I sold hotdogs to?


If you were a honest businessperson, you would state you sold 3 hotdogs at 4.50 each and made a extra 1.5 dollars on extras. Your analogy is not the same because those hotdogs are basically the same price with a little extra spent on condiments... while WoW has a wildly different pricing scheme.... it is nowhere close to a analogy.

No.... let me take you to TOR.... they still have a full sub model. They also have a F2P shop. What if Bioware added the two together so that if they had 500k people paying a full sub... and then counted every single person (lets say 3 million) who spent a single dollar in the F2P shop as another sub..... and then went around parading their 3.5 million subs all over the place..... would that be right? Absolutely not.

It is completely misleading... but then I am sure Bioware are going to do exactly that.
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#22Dark SymphonyPosted 2/22/2013 11:45:44 AM
WoW sub numbers are not real... its like Riot saying a gazillion people play LoL... when most don't actually pay anything.

Over 50% of WoW subs are from China... which pay and get counted differently. Way back in Q1 they released a article saying the made 240 mil in the quarter from WoW. That is 80 mil a month... or 5.5 million subscribers if you count a subscriber as someone who actually pays 15$ a month.

WoW has NEVER had 10 million people paying 15$ a month... NEVER. They just say that to fool stupid people nothing more.


You are trying way to hard to unearth some sort of issue in that post. You come off like you are simply bothered by WOWs success at all.

Which is 90% of the time all that they say... knowing full well that most dumb kids are going to think 10 million people pay a monthly fee for WoW from that statement.

They don't release their earnings and say 'we made X from WoW in this quarter, we made X from SC2, we made X from D3'.... no.... they just say 'we have 10 million subscribers in WoW'... and give the final number including every single one of their games. Edit: Now I know every company does this but Activision/Blizzard does this exceedingly much to misinform uneducated people.

This is shady and they know full well dumb people will misinterpret the numbers.


Shady? These things confuse me. When you accuse someone of trying to do something shady such a thing is relative. If I trick you into believing this car I'm selling you works I am doing so so you'll buy it.

What you're doing is saying that some guy standing on the street corner flexing his muscles with a sign saying "I'm strong" on his back is trying to scam people with shady tactics. Scam people into what? What's the end goal? It's just a guy with a shirt on flexing. It costs you nothing. You don't lose anything.

Seriously, what are you saying Blizzard's goal is?

Here is what you are not getting... DUMB KIDS DON'T CARE ABOUT PROFITS. You know who cares about profits? Hardcore fans and people like you who like to quote immaterial numbers to try to show that their game is good when in reality regular fans shouldn't be concerning themselves with such things. They should be worried about whether the game is good and whether it works. But you always have those people who want to spout preorder number and sales numbers to try to show that "their" game is the right choice or that that OTHER game is bad.

I don't think businesses have a responsibility to release their profit numbers to the general public through the general media or video game websites. I'm sure if you care and it's consequential for you to know you can find out the information. Here is he key thing you are not grasping...

The number of subscribers... The number of players... Those numbers are released not just to "trick uneducated people" but to give those people the information that MATTERS. What does it matter to me, a player, if Blizzard makes $1000 or $1000000000? If there's only one person paying that $1000000000 and the game is a ghost town I'm not going to be having much fun. If there are thousands of people playing 1 cent apiece to play and the world is active and full that's MUCH better for me.

Profits? They get profits from all sorts of WOW related avenues. Why would I care about that? Some dude bought some collectors edition bonus pack and then did a server transfer. He paid a bunch of extra money beyond his subscription price. WHAT DOES THIS DO FOR ME THE PLAYER? Nothing. I care more about whether there are people leaving or signing on because that is going to actively affect the world in front of me far more.

RaiderZ is F2P and pretty fun. I don't care squat about whether they're making money or not.
#23TaintedSeraphimPosted 2/22/2013 12:04:14 PM
zazz9 posted...
If you were a honest businessperson, you would state you sold 3 hotdogs at 4.50 each and made a extra 1.5 dollars on extras.

*headdesk*

No. If I had a sign over my hypothetical hotdog stand saying how many customers I had served, that sign would not need to specify how much each customer paid in order to be truthful. Honesty does not require that I give out irrelevant information.

zazz9 posted...
No.... let me take you to TOR.... they still have a full sub model. They also have a F2P shop. What if Bioware added the two together so that if they had 500k people paying a full sub... and then counted every single person (lets say 3 million) who spent a single dollar in the F2P shop as another sub..... and then went around parading their 3.5 million subs all over the place..... would that be right? Absolutely not.

Actually, if they used the word "players" instead of "subscribers," then yes, they absolutely could do that without being dishonest at all. Like I said before, the purpose of these numbers is to demonstrate popularity, not profits. When we're looking at popularity, the amount of money that each individual player pays is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that they're playing.

Now if you wanted to know their profit margins, then that's when the amount each customer paid would start to matter. But it does not matter if all you're looking at is popularity.
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#24zazz9Posted 2/22/2013 4:21:45 PM
Dark Symphony posted...
You are trying way to hard to unearth some sort of issue in that post. You come off like you are simply bothered by WOWs success at all.


I am not bothered by WoW's (fake) success... I don't care at all how many people play whatever game.... I played FF14... I played SWTOR... I played other indie games you probably never even heard of.

What does bother me are idiots who come off and say WoW has 10 million subs or players and then compare it to other games trying to invalidate or tarnish those other games image by comparing it to WoW... when WoW doesn't even have the success Activision (and thus the idiots who quote Activisions numbers) claim to have. THAT IS MY PROBLEM.

Dark Symphony posted...
Shady? These things confuse me. When you accuse someone of trying to do something shady such a thing is relative. If I trick you into believing this car I'm selling you works I am doing so so you'll buy it.

What you're doing is saying that some guy standing on the street corner flexing his muscles with a sign saying "I'm strong" on his back is trying to scam people with shady tactics. Scam people into what? What's the end goal? It's just a guy with a shirt on flexing. It costs you nothing. You don't lose anything.

Seriously, what are you saying Blizzard's goal is?


It's called marketing buddy... and one of the shadiest forms of marketing... deceptive borderline lying marketing. Take a class. I'm not going to whip out any of my books to look up the exact term but it's almost a bait and switch tactic.

Dark Symphony posted...
I don't think businesses have a responsibility to release their profit numbers to the general public through the general media or video game websites. I'm sure if you care and it's consequential for you to know you can find out the information. Here is he key thing you are not grasping...


Really? I thought they were a public company... and are required to release that kind of information. And for the record.. you CAN'T look it up... I looked at one of their financial statements and they only give total revenue/profit (across all of their games)... so you can't figure out how much each game made. Same for EA. And by the way I am somewhat knowledge in doing this kind of stuff for other stocks I actually own.

Dark Symphony posted...
The number of subscribers... The number of players... Those numbers are released not just to "trick uneducated people" but to give those people the information that MATTERS. What does it matter to me, a player, if Blizzard makes $1000 or $1000000000? If there's only one person paying that $1000000000 and the game is a ghost town I'm not going to be having much fun. If there are thousands of people playing 1 cent apiece to play and the world is active and full that's MUCH better for me.


I absolutely 100% agree with you until idiots start comparing other games to WoW's 10 million directly or indirectly trying to infer another game is not as good because they don't have as many people playing it. That is entirely my problem.

.
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#25zazz9Posted 2/22/2013 4:56:41 PM(edited)
I will add you can look up Activision/Blizzard annual reports here:

http://investor.activision.com/annuals.cfm

2011 is the latest one (2012 will probably be out soon). I shortened this a lot (and this is combined for all Activision/Blizz games so WoW, D3, CoD, SC2, spyro) but:

Consolidated Results
Net Revenues by Geographic Region
The following table details our consolidated net revenues
by geographic region for the years ended December 31,
2011, 2010, and 2009 (amounts in millions):
For the Years ended December 31,

________________________________2011 2010 2009

North America ........................................... $2,405 $2,409 $2,217 $(4) $192 % 9%
Europe ....................................................... 1,990 1,743 1,798 247 (55) 14 (3)
Asia Pacific ............................................... 360 295 263 65 32 22 12

Total geographic area net revenues ................ 4,755 4,447 4,278

And we also know that Asia Pacific has over 50% of the WoW subs.... yet obviously is a complete fraction of their actual revenue.

Yes.... WoW subs are real.... yes.. and I have a bridge to sell you guys too.

Edit: that is on page 13 of the 2011 annual report btw... if you care to look it up.
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#26zazz9Posted 2/22/2013 6:26:41 PM(edited)
TaintedSeraphim posted...
No. If I had a sign over my hypothetical hotdog stand saying how many customers I had served, that sign would not need to specify how much each customer paid in order to be truthful. Honesty does not require that I give out irrelevant information.

Well... that kind of leaves the door open for you to count anyone who doesn't even buy a hotdog as a customer... even if they pay you 50 cents for relish and no hotdog... or even a guy who wanted a glass of water and didn't pay you anything. If hotdogs were the only product at your hotdog stand... a normal person would probably assume each customer would probably need to buy a hotdog (or more than one) to be counted as a customer... which is obviously not true. That is somewhat misleading and shady.... because if you have a sign saying '50 customers served' and your next customer asks you 'i see your sign... have you sold 50 hotdogs'... and your answer was 'nah ive only sold 10 hotdogs'... they would probably think twice about buying your hotdog... though they'll still buy it because they want a hotdog... but they'd check it twice to make sure its a full hotdog and nothing went bad like the bread or the hotdog lol.

TaintedSeraphim posted...
Actually, if they used the word "players" instead of "subscribers," then yes, they absolutely could do that without being dishonest at all. Like I said before, the purpose of these numbers is to demonstrate popularity, not profits. When we're looking at popularity, the amount of money that each individual player pays is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that they're playing.

I 100% agree if Activison used the word players instead of subscribers... they can use their 10 million figure honestly. Or at least break apart the apples from the oranges and say 'we have 3 million NA/Europe players paying x and 7 million asia players paying y'.... because they are completely different models and are not even comparable really.
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#27AmirygonPosted 2/22/2013 10:12:01 PM
I hope not. When I play an MMORPG, I expect it to have little similarities to those outside of its own franchise. I don't want to play something that's just another game with a different skin (which is how nearly every MMORPG has become today).
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#28jo_sean06Posted 2/22/2013 10:33:40 PM
I hate people who say new MMOs are WOW clones...

Honestly XIV both 1.0 and Alpha did not feel like WOW at all. I mean sure, when you loot your items it felt like WOW, but that's where the differences end.

WOW never kept my interest long enough for me to even get to level 20. The gameplay in 1.0 was awful. Alpha was so much more proactive, parties were fun and engaging.

Granted Alpha was all about server stress and hardly highlighted gameplay, but it showed promise enough for me to be optimistic.

I'm not a WOW fan, but WOW does deserve respect for breaking the mold of MMOs. While I don't believe ARR will impact the MMO scene, but I believe it will be a solid MMO that also deserves respect, at least for effort.
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#29TaintedSeraphimPosted 2/22/2013 10:58:07 PM(edited)
zazz9 posted...
Well... that kind of leaves the door open for you to count anyone who doesn't even buy a hotdog as a customer...

Erm... not really.

zazz9 posted...
Or at least break apart the apples from the oranges and say 'we have 3 million NA/Europe players paying x and 7 million asia players paying y'.... because they are completely different models and are not even comparable really.

Again, it doesn't matter what kind of payment model is being used. All that matters is that they're playing the game. If they're playing the game and paying a regular fee to do so, then they count as subscribers.

There is absolutely nothing about the word "subscriber" that mandates a subscription be billed in any particular increment. An hourly subscriber and a monthly subscriber are both still subscribers in every sense of the word.
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#30TaintedSeraphimPosted 2/22/2013 11:00:08 PM
zazz9 posted...
I am not bothered by WoW's (fake) success...

lolthisguy
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