I wonder if this game will actually be more serious

#11DotsAndLinesPosted 10/31/2013 8:27:17 PM
I, for one, enjoyed the goofiness and prefer the series to not get too serious and dark.
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#12LuigiohPosted 10/31/2013 10:16:08 PM
Honestly I think a really grimdark 3edgy5me metal gear solid game would actually be awesome. Something as gritty as the last of us but in the metal gear universe. Hnnnngh
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#13high_contrast87Posted 10/31/2013 11:27:33 PM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
I think the very fact this supposedly will show Big Boss finally making the transformation into a villain will give it a darker and more serious tone - if it indeed lives up to that promise. I personally found the ending speech of chapter 5 in PW by Big Boss to be pretty dark and haunting, so I have high hopes.


Assuming Kojima has the will to do so, that is. Honestly, he effectively made Solid Snake into a psychopath in MGS even when he had absolutely no real reason to do so (I'm not kidding. Just look at what Psycho Mantis, Liquid Snake, Naomi Hunter, heck, even Roy Campbell (during the briefing) and Meryl Silverburgh basically said as much to Snake when interacting with him, and the last one was especially odd as she neither was an enemy of Snake (Liquid and Mantis) nor did she have any grudge against Snake despite technically being an ally (Naomi).). If he could ruin Snake's character like that in MGS (Honestly, a guy who "loves life" would NOT take any joy in killing, which is something he clearly did in MGS, enough for Psycho Mantis to read it in and even Meryl to note and Snake effectively admit to Naomi), he can most certainly do the same to Big Boss.

And honestly, the only way that speech is going to actually be dark and haunting is if he plagiarized Weiss the Immaculate's cleansing speech from Dirge of Cerberus, since that's the only way to ensure he is villainous as a result.


I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second paragraph? Are you saying that the speech in PW wasn't villanous? Because it was. Big Boss openly states that terrorism, crime, revolution - none of it is out of bounds. They will do whatever the times demand to ensure their own survival. And they expect to go to hell. That's pretty dark.

As for Solid Snake in MGS1, his character wasn't ruined at all. Please remember that while he said "I love life!" In MG2, he also then set on fire Big Boss - the man who subsequently was retconned to being his father and that he was aware of this when he 'killed' him - and retired to Alaska to become a very bitter and troubled man. So to me, its clear the Zanzibar Land uprising caused him to change. He became dissilussioned with everything and lost his positive outlook on life. By MGS1 he's sees himself as a simple killer. Rightly so, considering that's all he's actually done his whole life up to that point.
#14eric_otnessPosted 11/1/2013 3:20:42 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
I think the very fact this supposedly will show Big Boss finally making the transformation into a villain will give it a darker and more serious tone - if it indeed lives up to that promise. I personally found the ending speech of chapter 5 in PW by Big Boss to be pretty dark and haunting, so I have high hopes.


Assuming Kojima has the will to do so, that is. Honestly, he effectively made Solid Snake into a psychopath in MGS even when he had absolutely no real reason to do so (I'm not kidding. Just look at what Psycho Mantis, Liquid Snake, Naomi Hunter, heck, even Roy Campbell (during the briefing) and Meryl Silverburgh basically said as much to Snake when interacting with him, and the last one was especially odd as she neither was an enemy of Snake (Liquid and Mantis) nor did she have any grudge against Snake despite technically being an ally (Naomi).). If he could ruin Snake's character like that in MGS (Honestly, a guy who "loves life" would NOT take any joy in killing, which is something he clearly did in MGS, enough for Psycho Mantis to read it in and even Meryl to note and Snake effectively admit to Naomi), he can most certainly do the same to Big Boss.

And honestly, the only way that speech is going to actually be dark and haunting is if he plagiarized Weiss the Immaculate's cleansing speech from Dirge of Cerberus, since that's the only way to ensure he is villainous as a result.


I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second paragraph? Are you saying that the speech in PW wasn't villanous? Because it was. Big Boss openly states that terrorism, crime, revolution - none of it is out of bounds. They will do whatever the times demand to ensure their own survival. And they expect to go to hell. That's pretty dark.

As for Solid Snake in MGS1, his character wasn't ruined at all. Please remember that while he said "I love life!" In MG2, he also then set on fire Big Boss - the man who subsequently was retconned to being his father and that he was aware of this when he 'killed' him - and retired to Alaska to become a very bitter and troubled man. So to me, its clear the Zanzibar Land uprising caused him to change. He became dissilussioned with everything and lost his positive outlook on life. By MGS1 he's sees himself as a simple killer. Rightly so, considering that's all he's actually done his whole life up to that point.


He also said in the same game that he came to Zanzibar Land to get rid of his nightmares (implied to be PTSD from Outer Heaven), and the ending even made it clear that he succeeded (he told Campbell, when asked to rejoin FOXHOUND, that "the nightmares are gone. [Snake's] a free man now.") Heck, his bio in the manual even stated that he quit the CIA at one point between the two games.

And when I think of villainous, I think of Kefka Palazzo, Colonel Volgin, Hot Coldman, Weiss the Immaculate/Professor Hojo style of villainy. You know, villains who not only commit heinous actions, but clearly enjoy the carnage they caused. And please don't tell me that you don't want that in Big Boss because it's too extreme. He's had ten years to develop into this in universe, not to mention two games to develop (counting Portable Ops, which the timeline on the official site and even Kojima counted as canon in that podcast), so having him becoming exactly what I described (saying something akin to Weiss' cleansing speech, even more appropriate considering the Che references and how he acted more like the above mentioned bad guys than Big Boss) is actually the most appropriate response to that.

Besides, production materials and in-game for MGSV, Big Boss is still being called Snake (even by Kojima), so Snake changing his name's most likely going to be retconned.
#15Rayquaza487Posted 11/1/2013 4:07:08 PM
So just because a story has tidbits of humor within the realm of a dark plot, the overall story can't be dark? I've seen tons of movies with dark themes, but even the worst of them had AT LEAST one moment you couldn't help but laugh at.
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#16SterlingFox(Topic Creator)Posted 11/1/2013 8:48:32 PM
Rayquaza487 posted...
So just because a story has tidbits of humor within the realm of a dark plot, the overall story can't be dark? I've seen tons of movies with dark themes, but even the worst of them had AT LEAST one moment you couldn't help but laugh at.


Key word is "more" serious.
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#17high_contrast87Posted 11/2/2013 6:05:27 AM
He also said in the same game that he came to Zanzibar Land to get rid of his nightmares (implied to be PTSD from Outer Heaven), and the ending even made it clear that he succeeded (he told Campbell, when asked to rejoin FOXHOUND, that "the nightmares are gone. [Snake's] a free man now.") Heck, his bio in the manual even stated that he quit the CIA at one point between the two games.

And when I think of villainous, I think of Kefka Palazzo, Colonel Volgin, Hot Coldman, Weiss the Immaculate/Professor Hojo style of villainy. You know, villains who not only commit heinous actions, but clearly enjoy the carnage they caused. And please don't tell me that you don't want that in Big Boss because it's too extreme. He's had ten years to develop into this in universe, not to mention two games to develop (counting Portable Ops, which the timeline on the official site and even Kojima counted as canon in that podcast), so having him becoming exactly what I described (saying something akin to Weiss' cleansing speech, even more appropriate considering the Che references and how he acted more like the above mentioned bad guys than Big Boss) is actually the most appropriate response to that.

Besides, production materials and in-game for MGSV, Big Boss is still being called Snake (even by Kojima), so Snake changing his name's most likely going to be retconned.


Ahhhhh, so you're part of the "I want Big Boss to be a misunderstood hero" team. Snore.

If Kojima's got any balls he will ensure Big Boss is turned into the man he was portrayed as in MG2, the guy how wants to ensure a never ending cycle of worldwide never-ending conflict just because that's a utopia for war-crazed individuals like him, the guy who farms children from various conflicts with the intention of training them and feeding them back onto the battlefield. But also the guy who had compassion - the guy who could forgive the Outer Heaven resistance and save their lives after the Outer Heaven uprising despite them being his enemies.
That's who Big Boss is. He was this series' original villain and a complex, well written one at that. The prequels don't change that.

You're idea of a villain is ridiculous and black and white by the way - Hojo? Volgin? They're examples of one dimensional, plain evil characters with little substance to them. They're mustache twirling evil villains. Big Boss isn't that and that isn't how he'll be portrayed in V.
Bringing Final Fantasy villains into it is bizarre to begin with, the tone is those games is nothing like Metal Gear.

You seem to only comprehend things in extremes. Good, Evil. Black, White. This series is about shades of grey, surely you should know that by now.

And yes, Big Boss is still being referred to as Snake. And? Does that retcon him being Big Boss? Of course not.
#18Vicious756Posted 11/2/2013 7:04:25 AM(edited)
I definitely want a thorough examination of Big Boss' decent into madness, but I also hope there's room for the series' trademark humor now and then.

I think MGS4 (and every other MGS game) was successful specifically because it did tackle some serious themes but also left room for "fun". It specifically targeted the typical gamer with its first person mode and hundreds of weapons and then proceeded to critique war, child soldiers, "war as a video game," and all the other topics MGS is associated with - topics that most action game fans don't think about. They just want to blow stuff up, shoot people in the head and watch their brains turn into a fine red mist.

Mt. Snakemore never bothered me because it was so brief and in the very next scene (a wide shot of Haven) it's not even there anymore. I'm pretty sure it never really existed and it was just a joke put in by Kojima. Or my eyes are really bad.

But back to MGSV. As long as there are a few humorous characters and some fun side missions, I'm okay with the main story arc being much darker in tone than previous games. I hope that it makes me think about my actions as much as the other games in the series.

MGS is a key factor in how I view games as an adult. I used to love shooting and killing anything that moved in video games, but now, after playing all of the MGS series, appreciating their messages, and being given the option to take guards out non-lethally, I no longer get much thrill out of mindlessly murdering people, even though they're just pixels.

But I think, because of the nature of the game and who Big Boss is becoming, I might be forced to play the game in a less humane way. And I'm fine with that, as long as it does a good job at portraying Big Boss as a man who's lost his soul. I can play a murderous psychopath if the story warrants it and it makes me feel awful about my actions - something most games do not do for me.

But yeah, the cardboard box, and Kojima's usual sense of humor have to return in some way.
#19eric_otnessPosted 11/2/2013 10:51:28 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
He also said in the same game that he came to Zanzibar Land to get rid of his nightmares (implied to be PTSD from Outer Heaven), and the ending even made it clear that he succeeded (he told Campbell, when asked to rejoin FOXHOUND, that "the nightmares are gone. [Snake's] a free man now.") Heck, his bio in the manual even stated that he quit the CIA at one point between the two games.

And when I think of villainous, I think of Kefka Palazzo, Colonel Volgin, Hot Coldman, Weiss the Immaculate/Professor Hojo style of villainy. You know, villains who not only commit heinous actions, but clearly enjoy the carnage they caused. And please don't tell me that you don't want that in Big Boss because it's too extreme. He's had ten years to develop into this in universe, not to mention two games to develop (counting Portable Ops, which the timeline on the official site and even Kojima counted as canon in that podcast), so having him becoming exactly what I described (saying something akin to Weiss' cleansing speech, even more appropriate considering the Che references and how he acted more like the above mentioned bad guys than Big Boss) is actually the most appropriate response to that.

Besides, production materials and in-game for MGSV, Big Boss is still being called Snake (even by Kojima), so Snake changing his name's most likely going to be retconned.


Ahhhhh, so you're part of the "I want Big Boss to be a misunderstood hero" team. Snore.

If Kojima's got any balls he will ensure Big Boss is turned into the man he was portrayed as in MG2, the guy how wants to ensure a never ending cycle of worldwide never-ending conflict just because that's a utopia for war-crazed individuals like him, the guy who farms children from various conflicts with the intention of training them and feeding them back onto the battlefield. But also the guy who had compassion - the guy who could forgive the Outer Heaven resistance and save their lives after the Outer Heaven uprising despite them being his enemies.
That's who Big Boss is. He was this series' original villain and a complex, well written one at that. The prequels don't change that.

You're idea of a villain is ridiculous and black and white by the way - Hojo? Volgin? They're examples of one dimensional, plain evil characters with little substance to them. They're mustache twirling evil villains. Big Boss isn't that and that isn't how he'll be portrayed in V.
Bringing Final Fantasy villains into it is bizarre to begin with, the tone is those games is nothing like Metal Gear.

You seem to only comprehend things in extremes. Good, Evil. Black, White. This series is about shades of grey, surely you should know that by now.

And yes, Big Boss is still being referred to as Snake. And? Does that retcon him being Big Boss? Of course not.


Okay, then, how about the Patriots AIs, then? They were definitely not one-dimensional, yet they also were behaving exactly the same way as Volgin did in terms of villainous nature, and they don't even ham it up. Might as well cite Dr. Weil in there as well, and he's definitely not one-dimensional either (heck, there's a reason why Weil is listed as one of the Mega Man franchise's most evil villains).

At best, Big Boss is an anti-villain, not a pure villain. If they wanted him to be a villain, he'd have to match up to the above.

As far as Snake being referred to as Big Boss, the fact that Kojima is still calling him "Snake" instead of "Big Boss" (which he should definitely know he's not Snake anymore by Peace Walker's first ending), despite Peace Walker's ending, should give off some warning bells. Had I been in Kojima's position, I'd spend my time calling him Big Boss, not "Snake," in interviews.
#20makdude1994Posted 11/2/2013 11:52:06 AM
While I see where you are coming from, I think kojima isnt afraid at turning Big Boss into a villain. I think he just wants to do it slowly. Imagine if you're new to the MGS franchise. Seeing "snake" rather than big boss on the screen would make you want the game more, as most people have heard of the name snake rather than big boss. Kojima has also stated that Boss will do "questionable things" and that we will probably not like him by the end of the game. I just hope he keeps his word.