What if the horn isn't really there? *Ground Zeroes ending SPOILERS*

#31kill_distroyPosted 2/24/2014 7:25:55 AM
Reccees posted...
RickMoranis posted...
And this horn?


- 22 Days


A Shadow is born to A Light...


To erase A Shadow, A Light needs to be erased......


UID: 15925769


ICD-9: 353.6


CPT: 61863 - 95979


ACC: PRJNA264







So Long as A Light stays lit, A Shadow will remain............













............for is a pain, not just in limbs, but well of shades.


That's nice honey.
---
Words That Kill
GT: Risev / PSN: RiseQ8
#32high_contrast87Posted 2/24/2014 9:56:06 AM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
The retcon of MG2's nuclear disarmament plot was a GOOD thing, because it was stupid and completely ******* unrealistic in the first place. So this tiny newly formed nation (Zanzibar Land) is the only nuclear armed country in the world because they've raided all the other countries disposal sites and stolen ALL of their nukes? Yeah, ok.

MGS1 made it so they're just a new and aggressive nuclear power in the world which still makes them dangerous but is believable.

The fact is the plot of MG2 was always going to not make sense to a degree due to the fact it was written when the Cold War was still on and the USSR was intact (so the games plot referenced this) but set in 1999. The Berlin Wall came down shortly after he made the game.

But the plot is not destroyed, is still 100% per cent canonical and a valid entry in the main series (which not all canon games are nowadays)....so eric_ottness get over it already.


Except its not. When you basically destroy the entire plot of the game and basically retcon the heck out of it, its not 100% canonical, period. Actually, at best, only small bits of it are canon. The only way canon works is if 100% of the story, or at least 90% of it, is retained. When a vast majority of the story is retconned out of existence, flushed down the crapper, its not canon, period. The only way to salvage its canonicity IS to remake it. Kojima really should have just gone with the original plan of rebooting the series when making MGS instead of making it a direct sequel. It would have saved all of us a lot of grief. Yes, true, they may have referenced general bits. MGS4 also referenced the Galuade Incident, yet I can guarantee you that Ghost Babel wasn't, and never will be canon.

Violet Lee even put it best a while back: The games may have been treated as events, but they weren't actually canon.


Nope. The game is still completely canon, no matter what you try and say to the contrary. The fact parts of the story are retconned doesn't mean it isn't canon. The central plotline remains intact, Solid Snake infiltrates Zanzibar Land, defeats the new Metal Gear along with Gray Fox and Big Boss. And again, changing the fact ZL was the only nuclear power in the world was a good thing.

I suggest you drop this because as usual you're making yourself look stupid. Kojima decides what's canon, not you. And MG2 is right there in the most up to date timeline. It IS a 100% canonical whether you like it or not.

If you can't handle stories that include any kind of inconsistencies and retcons then why the hell do you devote so much time to this series?
#33eric_otnessPosted 2/24/2014 11:36:16 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
The retcon of MG2's nuclear disarmament plot was a GOOD thing, because it was stupid and completely ******* unrealistic in the first place. So this tiny newly formed nation (Zanzibar Land) is the only nuclear armed country in the world because they've raided all the other countries disposal sites and stolen ALL of their nukes? Yeah, ok.

MGS1 made it so they're just a new and aggressive nuclear power in the world which still makes them dangerous but is believable.

The fact is the plot of MG2 was always going to not make sense to a degree due to the fact it was written when the Cold War was still on and the USSR was intact (so the games plot referenced this) but set in 1999. The Berlin Wall came down shortly after he made the game.

But the plot is not destroyed, is still 100% per cent canonical and a valid entry in the main series (which not all canon games are nowadays)....so eric_ottness get over it already.


Except its not. When you basically destroy the entire plot of the game and basically retcon the heck out of it, its not 100% canonical, period. Actually, at best, only small bits of it are canon. The only way canon works is if 100% of the story, or at least 90% of it, is retained. When a vast majority of the story is retconned out of existence, flushed down the crapper, its not canon, period. The only way to salvage its canonicity IS to remake it. Kojima really should have just gone with the original plan of rebooting the series when making MGS instead of making it a direct sequel. It would have saved all of us a lot of grief. Yes, true, they may have referenced general bits. MGS4 also referenced the Galuade Incident, yet I can guarantee you that Ghost Babel wasn't, and never will be canon.

Violet Lee even put it best a while back: The games may have been treated as events, but they weren't actually canon.


Nope. The game is still completely canon, no matter what you try and say to the contrary. The fact parts of the story are retconned doesn't mean it isn't canon. The central plotline remains intact, Solid Snake infiltrates Zanzibar Land, defeats the new Metal Gear along with Gray Fox and Big Boss. And again, changing the fact ZL was the only nuclear power in the world was a good thing.

I suggest you drop this because as usual you're making yourself look stupid. Kojima decides what's canon, not you. And MG2 is right there in the most up to date timeline. It IS a 100% canonical whether you like it or not.

If you can't handle stories that include any kind of inconsistencies and retcons then why the hell do you devote so much time to this series?


Its canon only in-so-far as the event itself is canon. I'm doubtful the rest of the game is canon, especially with all the retcons. And it's not that I don't like that its canon, its that it makes absolutely no sense to call it canon when barely even 5% of the game even matches up with the rest of the series chronology. It may be canon, but only barely. If you're going to have something canon, you keep everything or at least the majority of it canon. And the ending of the game had Snake being cured of PTSD, yet MGS proved that to be a lie, as did Snake "loving life." So no, not even the core elements were kept canon (heck, we're not even sure if Big Boss can even be in FOXHOUND anymore, even covertly, especially when he is pretty much a hunted terrorist by The Phantom Pain based on what Ishmael told him, not to mention his ties to MSF are already well known based on the ending of Peace Walker.).

But hey, you should ask Violet Lee, as he can explain it further to you.
#34high_contrast87Posted 2/24/2014 2:24:10 PM
Ok am I supposed to know who Violet Lee is?

The story is canon, the game is canon, its all canon. You can ignore it if you want, pretend its not part of the timeline. That's kind of like what I do with MPO, except MPO actually isn't part of the latest timeline whereas MG2 definitely is.

Also you always go on and on about Snake's PTSD not being cured in MGS1....and? What's the problem? MGS1 introduced the clone storyline and told us Snake killed Big Boss knowing he was his father. Given that, of course his heads still messed up in MGS1.
#35eric_otnessPosted 2/24/2014 5:17:26 PM
high_contrast87 posted...
Ok am I supposed to know who Violet Lee is?

The story is canon, the game is canon, its all canon. You can ignore it if you want, pretend its not part of the timeline. That's kind of like what I do with MPO, except MPO actually isn't part of the latest timeline whereas MG2 definitely is.

Also you always go on and on about Snake's PTSD not being cured in MGS1....and? What's the problem? MGS1 introduced the clone storyline and told us Snake killed Big Boss knowing he was his father. Given that, of course his heads still messed up in MGS1.


Except unlike you and your views on MPO, I don't hate the MSX2 games. Heck, I actually hated the fact that Kojima basically had to retcon pretty much everything in those games to such an extent that the games are only barely canon, and hated how Kojima treated Solid Snake as being a monster since MGS1 and onward, an outright psychopath even by Snake's own admission to Naomi and basically not denying it to Meryl or Psycho Mantis. However, I'm not in charge of the company, so I have absolutely no choice but to treat his word as law. If I actually had a choice, I'd throw Kojima out of the company and forcibly take over AND make sure Metal Gear was written the way it should be written. Had I been in his position, I'd make sure that, IF I were to write MGS as it was written, I'd do what he originally planned for it and actually make MGS a total reboot so I wouldn't HAVE to worry about messing up previously-established canon.

And the problem with that was that a pretty big part of Snake's development, heck, the entire REASON he participated in the operation in MG2 (as he explicitly stated, twice, to Big Boss when confronting him) WAS to cure his PTSD. To not only fail at that, but basically lie about succeeding in curing it, after the entire plot premise made it clear that was his goal, was one of the worst things to do to a story. It makes Snake seem like a big jerk and untrustworthy to even be entrusted with telling the truth about himself or to others. And BTW, no, he did not have ANY problems with killing Big Boss as evidenced by his overall reaction to killing him when telling Naomi this. He didn't go into a sob story like Big Boss did over killing The Boss, he just basically went "yeah, I killed him, so what." No remorse on his part at all. And besides, he never even knew he was a clone until MGS, so that wouldn't have been a reason to not have his PTSD cured (why would it be when even back in Zanzibar Land with his knowing that Big Boss was his father, he never knew about his being a clone until Liquid told him years later?).
#36eric_otnessPosted 2/25/2014 11:22:58 AM
One last thing, since you brought up that MPO isn't on the timeline, once upon a time, back when Peace Walker was in development, they omitted the MSX2 games from the timeline as well. They were still to some degree canon. MPO still is until Kojima explicitly says otherwise (and yes, Kojima still views MPO as canon as he never said anything otherwise. He's also not one to simply be insincere with his statements. Don't forget, he's still hating on the NES Metal Gear to this moment and bashes it when he has the opportunity. Think about it, if Kojima wanted MPO to be non-canon, he would have explicitly stated it by now. And I don't mean making it a side game, I mean flat out stating in explicit exact words that it is not canon.).
#37high_contrast87Posted 2/25/2014 12:01:35 PM(edited)
eric_otness posted...
One last thing, since you brought up that MPO isn't on the timeline, once upon a time, back when Peace Walker was in development, they omitted the MSX2 games from the timeline as well. They were still to some degree canon. MPO still is until Kojima explicitly says otherwise (and yes, Kojima still views MPO as canon as he never said anything otherwise. He's also not one to simply be insincere with his statements. Don't forget, he's still hating on the NES Metal Gear to this moment and bashes it when he has the opportunity. Think about it, if Kojima wanted MPO to be non-canon, he would have explicitly stated it by now. And I don't mean making it a side game, I mean flat out stating in explicit exact words that it is not canon.).

I'm not even arguing about MPO's canonicity..I'm saying that I feel comfortable ignoring it since Kojima has been doing the exact same thing since god knows how long and he doesn't even acknowledge its existence anymore. In the interview with Komatsu about MGSV he only acknowledges MGS3 and Peace Walker as being previous Big Boss games and I'm fine with MPO being a "side story" that "isn't part of the main saga" which was the way it was described the last time it was brought up a few years ago. The fact it isn't on the timeline anymore is just confirming it isn't important.

As for MG2 not being on the timeline that one time, its irellevant because its sure as hell back on there now. MPO on the other hand has been left off of the timeline before now and its obvious this will continue to be the case.

In regards to Solid Snake, I stand by what I said. Maybe his intention in MG2 was to cure his PTSD but that's not how it turned out because MGS1 retconned Big Boss to being his father, and that he killed him knowing that. You think after committing patricide he's going to be fine? Will live a happy, normal life? No chance. It makes perfect sense.

And for the record, I don't hate MPO. Gameplay wise, I think its a decent game. A lot of fun and a great effort for the first true MGS on the PSP. Its just the story and characterisations I have serious problems with, and that's why I take the stance of ignoring it.
#38eric_otnessPosted 2/25/2014 12:43:29 PM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
In regards to Solid Snake, I stand by what I said. Maybe his intention in MG2 was to cure his PTSD but that's not how it turned out because MGS1 retconned Big Boss to being his father, and that he killed him knowing that. You think after committing patricide he's going to be fine? Will live a happy, normal life? No chance. It makes perfect sense.


Considering he has no sense of guilt at all in committing the act (not even a slight tear from his face) when relaying it to Naomi, basically treated it as no big deal at all, yes, he did most likely end up being fine from that, so no, it makes no sense at all. Big Boss and even Raiden had far better luck actually expressing guilt and not being fine with what they did compared to Solid Snake in MGS onward. And my claiming that he still had PTSD was more in reference to his still acting overall like he did in MG2.

And for the record, I don't hate MPO. Gameplay wise, I think its a decent game. A lot of fun and a great effort for the first true MGS on the PSP. Its just the story and characterisations I have serious problems with, and that's why I take the stance of ignoring it.


Yeah, well, I have serious problems with Kojima's actions overall to MG and MG2. Unlike you, I can't just ignore it, not after he continuously does these things. The only way I'd truly be able to ignore it is if I forcibly take over Kojima Productions, throw Kojima out and bar him from running his company ever again, and then run things the way they should be run, then, only then, can I completely ignore Kojima's contributions. Since he's in charge, and I cannot actually impact the writing, nor can you, for that matter, I have no other option but to not ignore it.

And to answer your earlier question, Violet Lee was a guy who used to frequent these boards a few years back (Metal Gear series-related boards, I mean).
#39high_contrast87Posted 2/25/2014 3:34:32 PM
Considering he has no sense of guilt at all in committing the act (not even a slight tear from his face) when relaying it to Naomi, basically treated it as no big deal at all, yes, he did most likely end up being fine from that, so no, it makes no sense at all. Big Boss and even Raiden had far better luck actually expressing guilt and not being fine with what they did compared to Solid Snake in MGS onward. And my claiming that he still had PTSD was more in reference to his still acting overall like he did in MG2.

Well he quite obviously wasn't fine in MGS1. At the beginning of the game he's way more bitter, way more disillusioned and angry than in MG2 and despite the words he speaks to Naomi about killing Big Boss I got the definite impression that behind those words there was a lot of pain and that his seclusion in Alaska was almost certainly due in part to the patricide. This to me seemed natural, and believable. Why would killing Big Boss ever have cured his PTSD? Why would a series with such an anti-war message even go in that direction. Returning to the battlefield was never going to end Snake's nightmares, it was only going to make them worse.
#40eric_otnessPosted 2/25/2014 4:07:55 PM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
Considering he has no sense of guilt at all in committing the act (not even a slight tear from his face) when relaying it to Naomi, basically treated it as no big deal at all, yes, he did most likely end up being fine from that, so no, it makes no sense at all. Big Boss and even Raiden had far better luck actually expressing guilt and not being fine with what they did compared to Solid Snake in MGS onward. And my claiming that he still had PTSD was more in reference to his still acting overall like he did in MG2.

Well he quite obviously wasn't fine in MGS1. At the beginning of the game he's way more bitter, way more disillusioned and angry than in MG2 and despite the words he speaks to Naomi about killing Big Boss I got the definite impression that behind those words there was a lot of pain and that his seclusion in Alaska was almost certainly due in part to the patricide. This to me seemed natural, and believable. Why would killing Big Boss ever have cured his PTSD? Why would a series with such an anti-war message even go in that direction. Returning to the battlefield was never going to end Snake's nightmares, it was only going to make them worse.


Considering he was doing fairly well in Alaska, even doing that Alaskan race and being an implied professional musher, not even think about the battlefield until Jim Houseman effectively forced Snake to participate in Shadow Moses via Roy Campbell (unlike, say, between MG1 and MG2 where he did CIA ops and later mercenary work), I'm extremely doubtful of that (trust me, had he been a wreck, he definitely wouldn't have pulled that off). You want an actual wreck as you put it, look at what happened to Big Boss. In one of the conversations in Portable Ops, Big Boss actually attempted to become an instructor or a hunter, but couldn't even pull that off without returning to the battlefield. Let's not forget about how he behaved regarding The Boss in the ending of MGS3, Peace Walker, and to a lesser extent Portable Ops. And Raiden... heck, probably the only reason he's even relatively stable was because he was effectively brainwashed by the Patriots up to the Big Shell Incident, and it was a lot more obvious, extremely blatant for even two year olds to see during that time he held a lot of self-loathing about his former status as a child soldier, not to mention his acts during war. It was certainly more blatant than whether Solid Snake actually had that (and I can deduce subtleties). Heck, he even was extremely reluctant to admit to Rose that he may enjoy killing as could be seen during a codec conversation with her late in the game (specifically around the time Emma was being escorted). That's actually being a wreck. Solid Snake didn't act that way at all. Yet he still acted like the way he did during MG2 (and that game made it obvious he was going through PTSD). Either way, MG2 had Snake explicitly stating to Campbell that his nightmares were gone, meaning he was cured of his PTSD, yet then MGS1 took a step backwards in development as if he never went through that.