So it seems obvious that... (SPOILERS)

#11Robin_MaskPosted 2/23/2014 5:07:57 PM
preachinsin posted...
I guess I'm just old fashioned. I would have a hard time playing as a defenseless child murderer, especially given I usually try hard in MG games to kill the bare minimum, if anyone.


Old fashioned? No.

You're also just guessing on what's going on anyway.
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#12high_contrast87Posted 2/23/2014 7:03:47 PM
preachinsin posted...
I guess I'm just old fashioned. I would have a hard time playing as a defenseless child murderer, especially given I usually try hard in MG games to kill the bare minimum, if anyone.


I agree that Big Boss won't end up murdering unarmed children like the trailer suggests, that would be too much. But your view of Big Boss seems to be very rose tinted in my opinion...I really don't agree that an established character trait of his is that he always protects the innocent. What's been established as of up to the end of Peace Walker, from my perspective, is that he is a man who has been mentally scarred by his killing of The Boss, is getting increasingly obsessive with war, and is on a slippery slope to nutjob territory.

And that's before Cipher blow up Mother Base and put him in a coma for 9 years. I fully expect to be shocked by his actions in MGS V, especially considering the much darker tone of this game compared to the rest of the series - but he won't be iredeemable. He has to be redeemable because that's the purpose of his appearance in MGS4.
#13preachinsin(Topic Creator)Posted 2/23/2014 7:54:15 PM(edited)
Fair enough. I'm giving a lot of credit to the descriptions we get of him from Grey Fox, Kyle Schneider, and Sniper Wolf. Apparently, even at his "worst", he still had tremendous charisma and qualities that brought former enemies to his way of thinking. Hard to imagine a heartless butcher could pull that off. While I fully expect him to become a much darker character in this game, as I've said, I take issue with the way the advertising suggests he will do things that I think are totally out-of-character.

Also want to make clear, I said Big Boss protects the "weak" at all costs. Minor distinction, I guess, but in his speech to MSF, he specifically states he wants them to fight for the sides in conflicts who are too weak to fight for themselves. Seems like a pretty strong indication of his personal convictions: he wants to protect the weak against the strong, and wants those who follow him to think the same way.

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#14SterlingFoxPosted 2/23/2014 11:26:14 PM
Kojima's original plan was Snake and Otacon to die like dogs in front of a firing squad for treason. Its not really a noble death...

Also, a defenseless child murderer? That's not old fashioned, its just a little ignorant. People do what they have to. Saying things like that was the mindset of all the people who spat on Vietnam veterans when they returned home, calling them murderers and making them feel like garbage because they had to defend themselves against an enemy who used children strapped with bombs and armed with assault rifles to fight them.

If you kill children as Big Boss, then its not going to be because he's a psychopath who likes to wear the skin of infants. Its going to be because he's got no other choice, and its likely going to dramatically change him as a person.
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#15preachinsin(Topic Creator)Posted 2/24/2014 6:05:10 AM
Wow. Certainly didn't mean to get into a "respect for veterans" debate. I understand people have had to do horrible things in war. Being forced to do horrible things to survive is a part of war that MG has explored in the past. As long as it is something forced on the character, it would make sense. Again, the trailer does not make it look like that is what is happening. These kids are jailed and unarmed, and the trailer is cut in a way to make it look like BB is firing into them indiscriminately. If BB does end up killing a kid in a different context (Chico for instance), that wouldn't necessarily "break" his character. Terrible things happen when people are pushed to the brink. Snapping to the point of massacring unarmed noncombatants would constitute a huge deviation from established character and a war atrocity to boot, however, regardless of the context.
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#16high_contrast87Posted 2/24/2014 7:40:32 AM
preachinsin posted...
Wow. Certainly didn't mean to get into a "respect for veterans" debate. I understand people have had to do horrible things in war. Being forced to do horrible things to survive is a part of war that MG has explored in the past. As long as it is something forced on the character, it would make sense. Again, the trailer does not make it look like that is what is happening. These kids are jailed and unarmed, and the trailer is cut in a way to make it look like BB is firing into them indiscriminately. If BB does end up killing a kid in a different context (Chico for instance), that wouldn't necessarily "break" his character. Terrible things happen when people are pushed to the brink. Snapping to the point of massacring unarmed noncombatants would constitute a huge deviation from established character and a war atrocity to boot, however, regardless of the context.


War atrocities would not be out of character for Big Boss, and judging by the trailers its highly likely he's going to be utilising child soldiers, authorising torture of even his close allies, involving himself in the blood diamond trade etc

Its clear he's going down the dark path but I'm pretty sure the trailer was edited to make us think he's gunning down unarmed children for shock value but there's no way that's what's actually going to happen.
#17preachinsin(Topic Creator)Posted 2/24/2014 12:09:49 PM(edited)
Agreed. Not all war atrocities are created equal, though. I would personally find it hard to play as a character that murdered unarmed, defenseless children. I don't have many lines, but that would be one of them. Hopefully they don't get so obsessed with "Walter Whiting" Big Boss that they force us to commit too many atrocities, especially given the series hallmark of making killing an often avoidable last resort.
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#18eric_otnessPosted 2/24/2014 12:34:07 PM
high_contrast87 posted...
preachinsin posted...
Wow. Certainly didn't mean to get into a "respect for veterans" debate. I understand people have had to do horrible things in war. Being forced to do horrible things to survive is a part of war that MG has explored in the past. As long as it is something forced on the character, it would make sense. Again, the trailer does not make it look like that is what is happening. These kids are jailed and unarmed, and the trailer is cut in a way to make it look like BB is firing into them indiscriminately. If BB does end up killing a kid in a different context (Chico for instance), that wouldn't necessarily "break" his character. Terrible things happen when people are pushed to the brink. Snapping to the point of massacring unarmed noncombatants would constitute a huge deviation from established character and a war atrocity to boot, however, regardless of the context.


War atrocities would not be out of character for Big Boss, and judging by the trailers its highly likely he's going to be utilising child soldiers, authorising torture of even his close allies, involving himself in the blood diamond trade etc

Its clear he's going down the dark path but I'm pretty sure the trailer was edited to make us think he's gunning down unarmed children for shock value but there's no way that's what's actually going to happen.


It was also made very clear that Solid Snake committed a lot of atrocities himself (heck, Roy Campbell even mentioned he did enough crimes to ensure he was sentenced to the stockades until he was a very old man). Heck, Kojima even stated that he was a monster in the commentary in MGS3, and if you're going to claim Kojima is the arbitrater of canon, that means he was indeed a monster and evil.
#19high_contrast87Posted 2/24/2014 3:04:56 PM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
preachinsin posted...
Wow. Certainly didn't mean to get into a "respect for veterans" debate. I understand people have had to do horrible things in war. Being forced to do horrible things to survive is a part of war that MG has explored in the past. As long as it is something forced on the character, it would make sense. Again, the trailer does not make it look like that is what is happening. These kids are jailed and unarmed, and the trailer is cut in a way to make it look like BB is firing into them indiscriminately. If BB does end up killing a kid in a different context (Chico for instance), that wouldn't necessarily "break" his character. Terrible things happen when people are pushed to the brink. Snapping to the point of massacring unarmed noncombatants would constitute a huge deviation from established character and a war atrocity to boot, however, regardless of the context.


War atrocities would not be out of character for Big Boss, and judging by the trailers its highly likely he's going to be utilising child soldiers, authorising torture of even his close allies, involving himself in the blood diamond trade etc

Its clear he's going down the dark path but I'm pretty sure the trailer was edited to make us think he's gunning down unarmed children for shock value but there's no way that's what's actually going to happen.


It was also made very clear that Solid Snake committed a lot of atrocities himself (heck, Roy Campbell even mentioned he did enough crimes to ensure he was sentenced to the stockades until he was a very old man). Heck, Kojima even stated that he was a monster in the commentary in MGS3, and if you're going to claim Kojima is the arbitrater of canon, that means he was indeed a monster and evil.


Yeah, except its clear from the games that Solid Snake isn't an evil monster. I don't tend to listen to what Kojima says about Solid Snake anymore because none of it makes any sense.
#20preachinsin(Topic Creator)Posted 2/24/2014 8:44:05 PM
Kojima can decide what happens, as well as what characters' stated motivations are. Judging whether or not they are "evil monsters" is really a matter of interpretation, though. Can someone really be an evil monster if they feel guilt/remorse for their actions, and do their best to make amends for their sins? Those kinds of judgments are up to the person viewing the work. Clearly, we all have our own takes on the characters. Learned from this discussion just how diverse those takes can be. Good to know.
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