a lot of fans complain about MGS4's ending... *spoilers*

#31INeedMGSHelpPosted 7/30/2014 9:32:03 AM
Throw away or not, its there isn't it?
Also my biggest problem with MGS4 is it abandons its interesting themes within the first 2 acts and just goes on tangents desperately trying to close up the timeline. That's the game's problems plot wise, in a nutshell.
#32eric_otnessPosted 7/30/2014 10:25:55 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
eric_otness posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


To be fair, that was going to be inevitable thanks to Drebin's little speech/rant in the ending, including the bit about the UN becoming the Patriots successors, the world being so broke that even if they got PMC regulations up and running they still can't pay the tab, it likely being a bad enough war zone that Drebin was going to be confident of making a profit as a free weapons dealer thanks to the Patriots, and lots of soldiers being braindamaged, having a long time to recover from SOP if at all.


You spend way too much time going on about "the UN are the new Patriots" throwaway line from Drebin.


Unfortunately, that whole rant isn't a "throwaway line," even if we ignore the UN=Patriots bit. And BTW, something like that is far too serious to simply dismiss as a "throwaway line," especially when the entire point of the ending was to conclude not only the Patriots, but also the machinations the Philosophers enacted and the overall Metal Gear series. The way that ending was done, especially with Drebin's rant and the overall conversation between the two, made clear that there was no end to the conflict overall, and if anything it might get worse.
#33Th3BlackW0lfPosted 7/30/2014 1:09:30 PM
INeedMGSHelp posted...
Throw away or not, its there isn't it?
Also my biggest problem with MGS4 is it abandons its interesting themes within the first 2 acts and just goes on tangents desperately trying to close up the timeline. That's the game's problems plot wise, in a nutshell.


It is really a shame, after MGS2 i expected a Xfiles esque series with a shadowny organitazion (AIs in this case) hunting down Solid Snake around the world, discover more about the Patriots plans etc, but the backlash post mgs2 was huge, i wouldnt be suprised if Kojima has some kind of resentment for Solid Snake (funny enough the character that made kojima and this series big and give him his pretty studio along with a high position in Konami), after all his new creation Raiden was pretty much trashed by this stupid fanbase that only wanted to play with SS.

With mgs3 is pretty clear that Kojima found his new start point so he quickly ended the saga, hell he loves the awful prequel cast so much he made that crap cast from mgs3 the main antagonists in the series.
#34eric_otnessPosted 7/30/2014 3:37:31 PM(edited)
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
INeedMGSHelp posted...
Throw away or not, its there isn't it?
Also my biggest problem with MGS4 is it abandons its interesting themes within the first 2 acts and just goes on tangents desperately trying to close up the timeline. That's the game's problems plot wise, in a nutshell.


It is really a shame, after MGS2 i expected a Xfiles esque series with a shadowny organitazion (AIs in this case) hunting down Solid Snake around the world, discover more about the Patriots plans etc, but the backlash post mgs2 was huge, i wouldnt be suprised if Kojima has some kind of resentment for Solid Snake (funny enough the character that made kojima and this series big and give him his pretty studio along with a high position in Konami), after all his new creation Raiden was pretty much trashed by this stupid fanbase that only wanted to play with SS.

With mgs3 is pretty clear that Kojima found his new start point so he quickly ended the saga, hell he loves the awful prequel cast so much he made that crap cast from mgs3 the main antagonists in the series.


To be honest, I actually thought Raiden's development about harboring guilt for actions he committed was better done than Solid Snake's development in MGS, since the latter seemed more like a sociopath who barely gave much thought on Big Boss being killed by him than someone who actually had remorse and self-loathing for their past and actions.
#35Th3BlackW0lfPosted 7/30/2014 4:04:20 PM
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.
#36eric_otnessPosted 7/30/2014 5:56:54 PM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.


You have to admit though that Big Boss's development regarding guilt about his past was at least better done than Solid Snake's, since as I pointed out, Solid Snake seemed more like a sociopath from his characterization from MGS.
#37high_contrast87Posted 7/30/2014 6:44:01 PM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
eric_otness posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


To be fair, that was going to be inevitable thanks to Drebin's little speech/rant in the ending, including the bit about the UN becoming the Patriots successors, the world being so broke that even if they got PMC regulations up and running they still can't pay the tab, it likely being a bad enough war zone that Drebin was going to be confident of making a profit as a free weapons dealer thanks to the Patriots, and lots of soldiers being braindamaged, having a long time to recover from SOP if at all.


You spend way too much time going on about "the UN are the new Patriots" throwaway line from Drebin.


Unfortunately, that whole rant isn't a "throwaway line," even if we ignore the UN=Patriots bit. And BTW, something like that is far too serious to simply dismiss as a "throwaway line," especially when the entire point of the ending was to conclude not only the Patriots, but also the machinations the Philosophers enacted and the overall Metal Gear series. The way that ending was done, especially with Drebin's rant and the overall conversation between the two, made clear that there was no end to the conflict overall, and if anything it might get worse.


The point was that ending The Patriots would lead to its own problems even with the FOXALIVE virus preventing the rise of Outer Heaven in their place. But this a new world where they can build something for themselves, finally free from SOP which would have enslaved humanity if allowed to be applied to the civilian level like The Patriots planned. Dre bins little warning about the UN doesn't invalidate what they've done when you consider what the alternative would have been had The Patriots not been stopped, or if they had but Ocelot's "Wild West all over again" had been allowed to come to fruition. Outer Heaven and The Patriots had been vying for control for most of the saga, now the world was free from both of them.
#38Th3BlackW0lfPosted 7/30/2014 6:52:25 PM
eric_otness posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.


You have to admit though that Big Boss's development regarding guilt about his past was at least better done than Solid Snake's, since as I pointed out, Solid Snake seemed more like a sociopath from his characterization from MGS.


But that is the whole point of his character imo, he accept what he is, he doesnt hide it, and yes, SS is a sociopath, regarding BB, to me the only good characterization was the PO one, in that BB was a strong leader i really liked how he was potraited, he was the guy in charge instead being miller errand boy. ''I'm not going to live my life the way The Boss did!'' just destroy all that bullcrap from PW.
#39eric_otnessPosted 7/30/2014 7:14:54 PM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
The point was that ending The Patriots would lead to its own problems even with the FOXALIVE virus preventing the rise of Outer Heaven in their place. But this a new world where they can build something for themselves, finally free from SOP which would have enslaved humanity if allowed to be applied to the civilian level like The Patriots planned. Dre bins little warning about the UN doesn't invalidate what they've done when you consider what the alternative would have been had The Patriots not been stopped, or if they had but Ocelot's "Wild West all over again" had been allowed to come to fruition. Outer Heaven and The Patriots had been vying for control for most of the saga, now the world was free from both of them.


Actually, it does. When most of the world is completely broke, to such an extent that even PMC regulation laws are unable to work, and Drebin is implied to potentially strike big regarding the arms business thanks to the Patriots' demise, and the UN is ready to take over, there's absolutely nothing good about it in the end. Don't forget, MPO ended in a similar manner by basically offing the Philosophers for good, ensuring the world was, for the moment, free for its own path, and we know how that turned out. This is exactly the same thing, and even Drebin pointed it out. Heck, it's exactly like the ending to the Matrix Revolutions, even espousing a similar "freedom" which is a bad pointless one at best.

And BTW, since Drebin made clear he was going to do well in the economy now that he was free from the Patriots' control, its going to be a wild west either way. Had you completely forgotten or ignored the speech/conversation he and Otacon had. If that's the world that would result in what happened, as they had described, guess what? I wouldn't even bother doing anything at all to stop Ocelot or the Patriots, since it makes little difference in the end. There's absolutely no indication that FOXALIVE changed things for the world for the better, and if anything there are more signs from Drebin that they only made things worse.

Also, when he explicitly compares the UN to the Patriots in a manner that indicated that they would be the next tyrannical group, yes, that does invalidate the ending, just as the bit about Drebin basically viewing his own Arms Laundering Company DREBINS as a good business opportunity despite the world being extremely broke makes it absolutely no different than Ocelot's "Wild West" fantasies and invalidates the ending all the same. And BTW, even the Wild West still had some laws. In fact, free choice as prescribed in the game, heck, the entire series is closer to the nihilistic interpretation by various existentialist philosophers such as Nietzsche (which Piggyback Guides for MGS3 even noted the Nietzschean parallels in the series).

But that is the whole point of his character imo, he accept what he is, he doesnt hide it, and yes, SS is a sociopath, regarding BB, to me the only good characterization was the PO one, in that BB was a strong leader i really liked how he was potraited, he was the guy in charge instead being miller errand boy. ''I'm not going to live my life the way The Boss did!'' just destroy all that bullcrap from PW.


I wasn't fond of Snake being treated as a sociopath in MGS, especially when it came after Metal Gear 2, where he made clear he loved life.

Yeah, I agree, and they really shouldn't have been singing praises for Che Guevara, even though that guy was supposed to be as bad as Volgin, someone Snake definitely would not even be acquaintances with, much less friends or a fan.
#40Th3BlackW0lfPosted 7/30/2014 7:31:37 PM
Lol at people thinking that after The Patriots downfall, the world is gonna live in happiness like some sort of fairy tale, the Patriots are gone but there always will be new powers trying to fullfil their agendas with the main monster gone.