a lot of fans complain about MGS4's ending... *spoilers*

#41iceberg187Posted 7/30/2014 9:21:57 PM
I just didn't like BB showing up out of no where, it made no sense
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#42high_contrast87Posted 7/31/2014 1:15:51 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
eric_otness posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.


You have to admit though that Big Boss's development regarding guilt about his past was at least better done than Solid Snake's, since as I pointed out, Solid Snake seemed more like a sociopath from his characterization from MGS.


But that is the whole point of his character imo, he accept what he is, he doesnt hide it, and yes, SS is a sociopath, regarding BB, to me the only good characterization was the PO one, in that BB was a strong leader i really liked how he was potraited, he was the guy in charge instead being miller errand boy. ''I'm not going to live my life the way The Boss did!'' just destroy all that bullcrap from PW.


No, no,no, no, god NO. PO's characterisation was total BS. In PO Snakes still the errand boy, except for that awful young Campbell character as opposed to Miller. And as it wasn't written by Kojima and instead his second rate subordinates they lack the balls to show any kind of villainous turn for the character, he's hyst cheesy hero - literally no difference between him and Solid Snake. PWs characterisation of Big Boss is superior in every way imaginable. That's the game where Big Boss got his personality.

PW not only shows a talkative, charismatic, authorative, and damaged Big Boss, it also has him doing and saying things which all foreshadow what he will eventually become - such as him recruiting his first child to fight for him, arming his bipedal tank with a nuclear warhead, and giving a speech about how his army will become terrorists and criminals if need be. PO didnt to do any of this. It was a failure and that's why PW exists.
#43fLying_FoXXXPosted 7/31/2014 2:44:30 AM
iceberg187 posted...
I just didn't like BB showing up out of no where, it made no sense


It actually did... If you agree with this guy's point of view.

http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS4/index.htm

In his opinion, MGS4 is "one big defragmentation" (as Otacon himself puts it). It means that the characters are "lost" in the "system" (don't have their proper place in the game) and progressively reach their right place.

Read this specific part:

http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS4/8st.htm

It deals with the infamous Big Boss return, and shows how it was inevitable in Kojima's plan of defragmenting his own series.

This intention from Kojima is so obvious, and it looks so much like it shaped the whole story, that I think the other ending (the one involving Snake and Otacon dying) might have been scrapped from the start. Unless, of course, Kojima considered at some point that killing Snake and Otacon could be part of the defragmentation, but somehow I doubt it.

On a side note, a whole lot of other elements of the game suddenly make sense after reading that article, so I definitely recommend it.
#44high_contrast87Posted 7/31/2014 3:19:02 AM
fLying_FoXXX posted...
iceberg187 posted...
I just didn't like BB showing up out of no where, it made no sense


It actually did... If you agree with this guy's point of view.

http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS4/index.htm

In his opinion, MGS4 is "one big defragmentation" (as Otacon himself puts it). It means that the characters are "lost" in the "system" (don't have their proper place in the game) and progressively reach their right place.

Read this specific part:

http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS4/8st.htm

It deals with the infamous Big Boss return, and shows how it was inevitable in Kojima's plan of defragmenting his own series.

This intention from Kojima is so obvious, and it looks so much like it shaped the whole story, that I think the other ending (the one involving Snake and Otacon dying) might have been scrapped from the start. Unless, of course, Kojima considered at some point that killing Snake and Otacon could be part of the defragmentation, but somehow I doubt it.

On a side note, a whole lot of other elements of the game suddenly make sense after reading that article, so I definitely recommend it.


That was good apart from the mention that he's wearing Gene's coat? Lol what? He's wearing his own coat. Big Boss was the first character in the series to be known for wearing that coat.
#45eric_otnessPosted 7/31/2014 3:44:01 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
eric_otness posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.


You have to admit though that Big Boss's development regarding guilt about his past was at least better done than Solid Snake's, since as I pointed out, Solid Snake seemed more like a sociopath from his characterization from MGS.


But that is the whole point of his character imo, he accept what he is, he doesnt hide it, and yes, SS is a sociopath, regarding BB, to me the only good characterization was the PO one, in that BB was a strong leader i really liked how he was potraited, he was the guy in charge instead being miller errand boy. ''I'm not going to live my life the way The Boss did!'' just destroy all that bullcrap from PW.


No, no,no, no, god NO. PO's characterisation was total BS. In PO Snakes still the errand boy, except for that awful young Campbell character as opposed to Miller. And as it wasn't written by Kojima and instead his second rate subordinates they lack the balls to show any kind of villainous turn for the character, he's hyst cheesy hero - literally no difference between him and Solid Snake. PWs characterisation of Big Boss is superior in every way imaginable. That's the game where Big Boss got his personality.

PW not only shows a talkative, charismatic, authorative, and damaged Big Boss, it also has him doing and saying things which all foreshadow what he will eventually become - such as him recruiting his first child to fight for him, arming his bipedal tank with a nuclear warhead, and giving a speech about how his army will become terrorists and criminals if need be. PO didnt to do any of this. It was a failure and that's why PW exists.


Actually, neither did MGS4 (which was made directly by Kojima). That's in fact the reason why some people actually complained that MGS4 kinda ruined Big Boss, as they don't give any indication that he actually was supposed to be evil like in the MSX2 games. Trust me, if Kojima wanted to depict him as evil in MGS4, he would have made sure he gave him the Volgin persona or Weil persona when describing him in MGS4. Heck, based on his commentary for MGS3, Solid Snake was definitely a monster compared to Big Boss.

And no, Peace Walker didn't give him that personality either. In case you've forgotten, Chico already was made a Child Soldier by Amanda, and he even implied that he has already fought several people before even meeting Big Boss in one of the tapes. Not to mention Chico doesn't even fight for him at all after joining MSF. There's also no foreshadowing to his actions in the MSX2 games, certainly not the Che Guevara love, especially when even Miller was shown loving him despite his role in the MSX2 games of being against him, and Kojima himself made clear that he was inspired to use Che from his 2008 biopic, which sanitized him and made him a saintly figure instead of the monster he truly was. Heck, even Ground Zeroes largely ignored most of that development, and he was still called Snake in the fifth chapter of Peace Walker itself despite the first ending explicitly stating he only wants to be called Big Boss from that point onward. Also, they should have gone with the Lotso route.
#46fLying_FoXXXPosted 7/31/2014 4:29:10 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
That was good apart from the mention that he's wearing Gene's coat? Lol what? He's wearing his own coat. Big Boss was the first character in the series to be known for wearing that coat.


Yeah, he over-interpreted that one. ^^
#47The_Ivory_ManPosted 7/31/2014 9:40:25 AM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
eric_otness posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
Raiden story arc in MGS2 was superb, much better than the BB arc imo I hope Kojima grow some balls and make a compelling arc in mgsv, Kojipro is c0ckteasing about the missing link since 2006 and the only thing we got is shoddy portables side games with questionable characterization filled with an awful cast (PW looking at you) beating the same dead horse over and over.


You have to admit though that Big Boss's development regarding guilt about his past was at least better done than Solid Snake's, since as I pointed out, Solid Snake seemed more like a sociopath from his characterization from MGS.


But that is the whole point of his character imo, he accept what he is, he doesnt hide it, and yes, SS is a sociopath, regarding BB, to me the only good characterization was the PO one, in that BB was a strong leader i really liked how he was potraited, he was the guy in charge instead being miller errand boy. ''I'm not going to live my life the way The Boss did!'' just destroy all that bullcrap from PW.


No, no,no, no, god NO. PO's characterisation was total BS. In PO Snakes still the errand boy, except for that awful young Campbell character as opposed to Miller. And as it wasn't written by Kojima and instead his second rate subordinates they lack the balls to show any kind of villainous turn for the character, he's hyst cheesy hero - literally no difference between him and Solid Snake. PWs characterisation of Big Boss is superior in every way imaginable. That's the game where Big Boss got his personality.

PW not only shows a talkative, charismatic, authorative, and damaged Big Boss, it also has him doing and saying things which all foreshadow what he will eventually become - such as him recruiting his first child to fight for him, arming his bipedal tank with a nuclear warhead, and giving a speech about how his army will become terrorists and criminals if need be. PO didnt to do any of this. It was a failure and that's why PW exists.


Actually, neither did MGS4 (which was made directly by Kojima). That's in fact the reason why some people actually complained that MGS4 kinda ruined Big Boss, as they don't give any indication that he actually was supposed to be evil like in the MSX2 games. Trust me, if Kojima wanted to depict him as evil in MGS4, he would have made sure he gave him the Volgin persona or Weil persona when describing him in MGS4. Heck, based on his commentary for MGS3, Solid Snake was definitely a monster compared to Big Boss.

And no, Peace Walker didn't give him that personality either. In case you've forgotten, Chico already was made a Child Soldier by Amanda, and he even implied that he has already fought several people before even meeting Big Boss in one of the tapes. Not to mention Chico doesn't even fight for him at all after joining MSF. There's also no foreshadowing to his actions in the MSX2 games, certainly not the Che Guevara love, especially when even Miller was shown loving him despite his role in the MSX2 games of being against him, and Kojima himself made clear that he was inspired to use Che from his 2008 biopic, which sanitized him and made him a saintly figure instead of the monster he truly was. Heck, even Ground Zeroes largely ignored most of that development, and he was still called Snake in the fifth chapter of Peace Walker itself despite the first ending explicitly stating he only wants to be called Big Boss from that point onward. Also, they should have gone with the Lotso route.


Chico actually does shoot down soldiers in PW.
#48eric_otnessPosted 7/31/2014 9:42:14 AM
The_Ivory_Man posted...
Chico actually does shoot down soldiers in PW.


Except at that time, the FSLN wasn't actually affiliated with MSF by that point. The beginning of the fourth chapter even made clear that the FSLN left Mother Base to continue their revolution. He wasn't actually fighting FOR Big Boss. That's what I was trying to get at.
#49DarkGam3rPosted 7/31/2014 12:57:14 PM
eric_otness posted...
The_Ivory_Man posted...
Chico actually does shoot down soldiers in PW.


Except at that time, the FSLN wasn't actually affiliated with MSF by that point. The beginning of the fourth chapter even made clear that the FSLN left Mother Base to continue their revolution. He wasn't actually fighting FOR Big Boss. That's what I was trying to get at.


IMO assisting an armed fighting group of any kind is the same as fighting for them. After all, the Intel, mess hall and R&D teams are all just recruited soldiers (besides the two scientists).
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#50DruffPosted 7/31/2014 1:50:48 PM(edited)
I'm not all in favor of Solid Snake dying per se. But there were so many "omg snake died!" fake-outs in the last part of the game, it just seemed really lame and wimpy that he didn't die.
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