a lot of fans complain about MGS4's ending... *spoilers*

#51F0XholePosted 7/31/2014 5:08:53 PM
Seifross2010 posted...
F0Xhole posted...
- Snake doesn't kill himself, but only because Big Boss fires a shot that prevents the suicide. It would give us that bittersweet ending that I love so much, but it wouldn't be on Snake chickening out.


I would've loved that - I hated that Snake didn't kill himself, but having Boss be the one to stop him would have made the whole scene feel better to me.

It also would have been kind of sweet that Big Boss fired a gun one last time, but it was to save his "son" and not to further his own motives.


I think the scene would have been a lot more dramatic if, rather than showing Snake sweating and panting with Big Boss just watching from the sidelines, we see Snake naturally drawing his pistol to threat, only to see smoke rolling out of the barrel of his Patriot that is aimed squarely at Snake.. a shot that obviously missed.

Ideally, I would have liked a boss battle here in the graveyard.. a boss battle that would have brought the series full circle. But instead of a win/loss battle, it just ends with the CQC hug, and the ending cutscene proceeds.
#52GeouPosted 7/31/2014 7:43:22 PM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
I liked MGS4 , but replaying the entire series this month, i realized that kojima after mgs3 just doesnt cared anymore about the solid snake arc, the game just screamed ''i want to kill this guy and close the timeline so i can come back with naked''
And judging recent interviews like ''Raiden shouldnt have existed'' , ''i enjoy naked more than solid'' and the post mgs2 backlash i think kojima just hate anything related to the Solid/Raiden era.

This franchise haved so much potential, now we are stuck with pointless prequels, the sense of mystery in the series now is gone thanks to MGS4 closure, the series is now pretty much Lemony Snicket's A series of Unfortunate Events starring Big Boss.


Waitwut? When did Kojima say that Raiden shouldn't have existed?
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#53Th3BlackW0lfPosted 7/31/2014 9:20:33 PM
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.
#54high_contrast87Posted 8/1/2014 2:00:05 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.


It doesn't bother me that he prefers writing for Big Boss since I have always found him more compelling anyway. Solid Snake, in his last game, was literally one of the worst characters on the series - "who's got a smoke??" Lolz. He's just not very interesting. At all. I'm much more interested in a hero who hoes completely off the deep end to become a villain that threatens the entire world.

Solid Snake had his day in MGS1 & 2, he's done with now.
#55eric_otnessPosted 8/1/2014 3:53:57 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.


It doesn't bother me that he prefers writing for Big Boss since I have always found him more compelling anyway. Solid Snake, in his last game, was literally one of the worst characters on the series - "who's got a smoke??" Lolz. He's just not very interesting. At all. I'm much more interested in a hero who hoes completely off the deep end to become a villain that threatens the entire world.

Solid Snake had his day in MGS1 & 2, he's done with now.


Actually, I'm not even sure if Solid Snake even had his day at all other than possibly in MG2:SS. MGS1 carried a lot of implications that Snake was effectively a bloodthirsty remorseless psychopath, and even Kojima acknowledged this in one of the commentaries for MGS3. And unlike Raiden in MGS2, heck, even Big Boss in the prequel games and MGS4, there is little, if any indication that he actually has remorse about his past or that his past was painful to him. And he may use the rationale for fighting for a better world for conducting terrorism in MGS2 (which he even admitted to Raiden was the case), but then again, Albert Wesker, the Soviets, the Nazis, all those guys claimed exactly the same things as well, heck, even the most evil character in the franchise, Volgin, claimed this as well, yet they were still very evil and psychopathic.

And as noted above, both MGS4 (which, BTW, would definitely qualify as Kojima's fault since he undoubtedly wrote and directed MGS4) and MPO (which he at least wrote the general story even if he never actually directed it) ruined Big Boss's character as a villain from the MSX2 games. That's in fact one of the biggest complaints about the former game, as Ether101 (as much as I disagree with him on various respects, including Big Boss being a god-delusional person and Solid Snake being an absolute saint) can attest to as well as at least a few others.

And anyways, the reason people like the Joker or Emperor Palpatine or, heck, even Albert Wesker are considered very popular is precisely because they were effectively card-carrying villains, with zero redemptive aspects to them. Granted, Palpatine may not be as popular as Vader, but at least he's not a scrappy.

Also, Sephiroth definitely meets your interests as well, as he was indeed a former hero (Final Fantasy VII explicitly refers to him as such, and in Crisis Core and Before Crisis, we even see his heroics first-hand) who fell hard, yet by the time of Final Fantasy VII, Advent Children, heck, even Dissidia (the first game at least, 012 made him amnesiac) made him a very bad individual. And while the Joker wasn't necessarily a "hero" before becoming the monster clown we know him as today, he did imply in the Killing Joke that he was at least not a very bad person before becoming that psychopath. Those are fallen heroes done right, and unfortunately, Kojima did it wrong in MGS4, heck, even in MG2 by having Big Boss basically risk his life to save not just his soldiers but even those who had previously called him and his group their enemy.
#56Drunken_SnakePosted 8/1/2014 5:13:14 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
I liked MGS4 , but replaying the entire series this month, i realized that kojima after mgs3 just doesnt cared anymore about the solid snake arc, the game just screamed ''i want to kill this guy and close the timeline so i can come back with naked''
And judging recent interviews like ''Raiden shouldnt have existed'' , ''i enjoy naked more than solid'' and the post mgs2 backlash i think kojima just hate anything related to the Solid/Raiden era.

This franchise haved so much potential, now we are stuck with pointless prequels, the sense of mystery in the series now is gone thanks to MGS4 closure, the series is now pretty much Lemony Snicket's A series of Unfortunate Events starring Big Boss.

That's pretty sad if it's true. MGS2 Raiden is by far my favourite main character of MGS... And seeing his development in 4 kinda confirms that Kojima didn't really care that much about him.

The number one reason I don't feel like playing MGS4 anymore is that I feel no real connection between characters, or player and the game. It's just one huge mess, consisting of overly long monologues explaining things that were retconned in between the two games, and attempt to tie ALL loose ends. If they just did it in chronological order (PW and TPP being the games after MGS3), we could've learnt about Patriots and Zero in more personal way, slowly uncovering the mystery through the eyes of Big Boss. Then the actual closure of Metal Gear saga could focus more on action, emotions and character interactions. Now we are left with games covering the story that would've been much more relevant before MGS4.

Also, I really hated how the scene with Big Boss turned out to be - successfully stealing ending of a game that should have been all Solid Snake. Not cool... And not just that. Big Boss' actions and the revealing monologue during the ending (along with few other scenes in the game) changed so many story arcs and characters for worse that I like to just ignore it.
#57F0XholePosted 8/2/2014 7:53:57 PM
Drunken_Snake posted...
slowly uncovering the mystery through the eyes of Big Boss.


Way to be insensitive, man...
#58Th3BlackW0lfPosted 8/2/2014 8:51:35 PM
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.


It doesn't bother me that he prefers writing for Big Boss since I have always found him more compelling anyway. Solid Snake, in his last game, was literally one of the worst characters on the series - "who's got a smoke??" Lolz. He's just not very interesting. At all. I'm much more interested in a hero who hoes completely off the deep end to become a villain that threatens the entire world.

Solid Snake had his day in MGS1 & 2, he's done with now.


ehh, good for you i guess, if anything mgs4 showed that Solid Snake is the main lead with the biggest balls in the series despite being sick and old, he doesnt need to build countless armies to take on the bad guy, he just get the job done you know.
Maybe because i prefer the whole loner stoic badass that doesnt give a crap over a second rate che guevara crybaby that spend four games angsting and crying over the same thing over like a spoiled manchild.
For being the legendary soldier leader, BB really sucks at his job, this guy lost like three different fortress, units and bases in his career, he should team up with the Cobra Commander, i wonder who sucks more.
#59ScoobySnackPosted 8/3/2014 2:57:04 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
And judging recent interviews like ''Raiden shouldnt have existed''


Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake


Link?
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#60eric_otnessPosted 8/3/2014 3:50:58 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.


It doesn't bother me that he prefers writing for Big Boss since I have always found him more compelling anyway. Solid Snake, in his last game, was literally one of the worst characters on the series - "who's got a smoke??" Lolz. He's just not very interesting. At all. I'm much more interested in a hero who hoes completely off the deep end to become a villain that threatens the entire world.

Solid Snake had his day in MGS1 & 2, he's done with now.


ehh, good for you i guess, if anything mgs4 showed that Solid Snake is the main lead with the biggest balls in the series despite being sick and old, he doesnt need to build countless armies to take on the bad guy, he just get the job done you know.
Maybe because i prefer the whole loner stoic badass that doesnt give a crap over a second rate che guevara crybaby that spend four games angsting and crying over the same thing over like a spoiled manchild.
For being the legendary soldier leader, BB really sucks at his job, this guy lost like three different fortress, units and bases in his career, he should team up with the Cobra Commander, i wonder who sucks more.


To be honest, Batman seemed to take on the loner stoic bad*** role better than Solid Snake, largely because unlike Solid Snake where its repeatedly stated by both allies and enemies that he effectively enjoys killing people, Batman actually has been proven to make sure he avoids killing.

Though I agree with you about Big Boss's Che Guevara praising, as that was... honestly, I found that to be really OOC for Big Boss, especially from what I learned of the guy (he's basically Volgin, and you know how Naked Snake was like regarding Volgin), not to mention Kazuhira Miller who never actually became a bad guy by any stretch if we go by the MSX2 games.