a lot of fans complain about MGS4's ending... *spoilers*

#61high_contrast87Posted 8/4/2014 4:03:01 AM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
In a recent interview he mentioned that Raiden was a mistake, it doesnt suprise me, its obvious in MGS4 that Kojima doesnt give a crap about him, whoever wrote Rising made a much better job potrating a more experienced version of MGS2 Raiden.


It doesn't bother me that he prefers writing for Big Boss since I have always found him more compelling anyway. Solid Snake, in his last game, was literally one of the worst characters on the series - "who's got a smoke??" Lolz. He's just not very interesting. At all. I'm much more interested in a hero who hoes completely off the deep end to become a villain that threatens the entire world.

Solid Snake had his day in MGS1 & 2, he's done with now.


Actually, I'm not even sure if Solid Snake even had his day at all other than possibly in MG2:SS. MGS1 carried a lot of implications that Snake was effectively a bloodthirsty remorseless psychopath, and even Kojima acknowledged this in one of the commentaries for MGS3. And unlike Raiden in MGS2, heck, even Big Boss in the prequel games and MGS4, there is little, if any indication that he actually has remorse about his past or that his past was painful to him. And he may use the rationale for fighting for a better world for conducting terrorism in MGS2 (which he even admitted to Raiden was the case), but then again, Albert Wesker, the Soviets, the Nazis, all those guys claimed exactly the same things as well, heck, even the most evil character in the franchise, Volgin, claimed this as well, yet they were still very evil and psychopathic.

And as noted above, both MGS4 (which, BTW, would definitely qualify as Kojima's fault since he undoubtedly wrote and directed MGS4) and MPO (which he at least wrote the general story even if he never actually directed it) ruined Big Boss's character as a villain from the MSX2 games. That's in fact one of the biggest complaints about the former game, as Ether101 (as much as I disagree with him on various respects, including Big Boss being a god-delusional person and Solid Snake being an absolute saint) can attest to as well as at least a few others.

And anyways, the reason people like the Joker or Emperor Palpatine or, heck, even Albert Wesker are considered very popular is precisely because they were effectively card-carrying villains, with zero redemptive aspects to them. Granted, Palpatine may not be as popular as Vader, but at least he's not a scrappy.

Also, Sephiroth definitely meets your interests as well, as he was indeed a former hero (Final Fantasy VII explicitly refers to him as such, and in Crisis Core and Before Crisis, we even see his heroics first-hand) who fell hard, yet by the time of Final Fantasy VII, Advent Children, heck, even Dissidia (the first game at least, 012 made him amnesiac) made him a very bad individual. And while the Joker wasn't necessarily a "hero" before becoming the monster clown we know him as today, he did imply in the Killing Joke that he was at least not a very bad person before becoming that psychopath. Those are fallen heroes done right, and unfortunately, Kojima did it wrong in MGS4, heck, even in MG2 by having Big Boss basically risk his life to save not just his soldiers but even those who had previously called him and his group their enemy.


Sephiroth is probably the mist overrated video game villain of all time. Terrible character. And we have very different opinion on what constitutes a fallen hero done 'right'. Big Boss still going out of his way to save enemies after the fall of Outer Heaven only adds to his complexity and makes him a more compelling character. It's not a negative at all.
#62eric_otnessPosted 8/4/2014 4:56:08 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
Sephiroth is probably the mist overrated video game villain of all time. Terrible character. And we have very different opinion on what constitutes a fallen hero done 'right'. Big Boss still going out of his way to save enemies after the fall of Outer Heaven only adds to his complexity and makes him a more compelling character. It's not a negative at all.


Even without Sephiroth, we also have people like the Joker (who, again, technically wasn't a hero at all but was implied to at least be a fairly decent person before becoming the monster clown we all love to hate in sources such as The Killing Joke), Darth Vader (who actually was very ruthless and had little, if any redeeming characteristics in many things by the time of the Original Trilogy, and unlike Palpatine is definitely not a card-carrying villain and even hates himself for some of the evil he did), or heck, Lotso in Toy Story 3. Heck, also Malefor from the Spyro reboot (who actually was a former hero who fell from grace). I can name several other characters who were former good guys, if not former heroes yet clearly had extremely little, if any redeemable characteristics after they fell from grace and became villains. Two-Face from the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight movie is another good example, where even his "good deeds" post-fall are not even that good (such as deciding the fate of Maroni's driver after he decided to spare Maroni (thus indirectly killing Maroni instead of killing him directly), or punching Ramirez in the face and knocking her out after it landing "sunny-side up" in her favor).

And it only makes him more of a confusing character, not a compelling one. It's sort of like how the recent Maleficent movie utterly ruined the titular character by effectively making her not evil at all, let alone Evil Incarnate.

EDIT: Besides, you can have a complex villain without giving them shades of gray, making them truly evil with no redeeming characteristics in fact. The Joker post-fall definitely qualifies as a villain with no redeeming features, a pure psychopath, and in fact his being blatantly evil is precisely why he's not only considered one of the best Batman villains, but the most well known comic book character. Heck, Palpatine had no redeemable characteristics at all, being a pure monster from the get-go, yet despite that, despite effectively being a card-carrying villain, he was surprisingly three dimensional and also considered one of the more popular villains in Star Wars (only Vader is more popular than him), and heck, of the characters in the much-shafted Prequel Trilogy, only Palpatine and Darth Maul were considered extremely well-received in terms of villains, and in terms of characters overall alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi (TVTropes even noted this). Heck, Maleficent herself, pre-reboot, was very popular precisely because of her status as a pure-evil villain with no redeeming characteristics, as was Frollo, Ursula, and the like. That's not even getting into characters like Kefka (who outside Japan at least actually rivals Sephiroth in terms of popularity, and certainly is comparable to the Joker).
#63SSJ_JinPosted 8/4/2014 7:49:37 AM
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


Rising's not canon.

http://i.imgur.com/mlIbMmu.gif
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#64eric_otnessPosted 8/4/2014 7:59:36 AM
SSJ_Jin posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


Rising's not canon.

http://i.imgur.com/mlIbMmu.gif


Yeah, actually, it was. Yuji Korekado confirmed it was canon in this PAX 2011 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7BTtiAQuZ0
#65high_contrast87Posted 8/4/2014 10:14:02 AM
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
Sephiroth is probably the mist overrated video game villain of all time. Terrible character. And we have very different opinion on what constitutes a fallen hero done 'right'. Big Boss still going out of his way to save enemies after the fall of Outer Heaven only adds to his complexity and makes him a more compelling character. It's not a negative at all.


Even without Sephiroth, we also have people like the Joker (who, again, technically wasn't a hero at all but was implied to at least be a fairly decent person before becoming the monster clown we all love to hate in sources such as The Killing Joke), Darth Vader (who actually was very ruthless and had little, if any redeeming characteristics in many things by the time of the Original Trilogy, and unlike Palpatine is definitely not a card-carrying villain and even hates himself for some of the evil he did), or heck, Lotso in Toy Story 3. Heck, also Malefor from the Spyro reboot (who actually was a former hero who fell from grace). I can name several other characters who were former good guys, if not former heroes yet clearly had extremely little, if any redeemable characteristics after they fell from grace and became villains. Two-Face from the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight movie is another good example, where even his "good deeds" post-fall are not even that good (such as deciding the fate of Maroni's driver after he decided to spare Maroni (thus indirectly killing Maroni instead of killing him directly), or punching Ramirez in the face and knocking her out after it landing "sunny-side up" in her favor).

And it only makes him more of a confusing character, not a compelling one. It's sort of like how the recent Maleficent movie utterly ruined the titular character by effectively making her not evil at all, let alone Evil Incarnate.



EDIT: Besides, you can have a complex villain without giving them shades of gray, making them truly evil with no redeeming characteristics in fact. The Joker post-fall definitely qualifies as a villain with no redeeming features, a pure psychopath, and in fact his being blatantly evil is precisely why he's not only considered one of the best Batman villains, but the most well known comic book character. Heck, Palpatine had no redeemable characteristics at all, being a pure monster from the get-go, yet despite that, despite effectively being a card-carrying villain, he was surprisingly three dimensional and also considered one of the more popular villains in Star Wars (only Vader is more popular than him), and heck, of the characters in the much-shafted Prequel Trilogy, only Palpatine and Darth Maul were considered extremely well-received in terms of villains, and in terms of characters overall alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi (TVTropes even noted this). Heck, Maleficent herself, pre-reboot, was very popular precisely because of her status as a pure-evil villain with no redeeming characteristics, as was Frollo, Ursula, and the like. That's not even getting into characters like Kefka (who outside Japan at least actually rivals Sephiroth in terms of popularity, and certainly is comparable to the Joker).


I don't like villains with no redeeming qualities. They bore me eg. Voldemort from Harry Potter. I want a reason to root for them and this's difficult if they're just 'evil' and that's it. Big Boss has always been a multifaceted character ever since MG2 and I liked that.

Kefka was a good villain though....for comedic reasons mostly.
#66eric_otnessPosted 8/4/2014 11:55:16 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
eric_otness posted...
high_contrast87 posted...
Sephiroth is probably the mist overrated video game villain of all time. Terrible character. And we have very different opinion on what constitutes a fallen hero done 'right'. Big Boss still going out of his way to save enemies after the fall of Outer Heaven only adds to his complexity and makes him a more compelling character. It's not a negative at all.


Even without Sephiroth, we also have people like the Joker (who, again, technically wasn't a hero at all but was implied to at least be a fairly decent person before becoming the monster clown we all love to hate in sources such as The Killing Joke), Darth Vader (who actually was very ruthless and had little, if any redeeming characteristics in many things by the time of the Original Trilogy, and unlike Palpatine is definitely not a card-carrying villain and even hates himself for some of the evil he did), or heck, Lotso in Toy Story 3. Heck, also Malefor from the Spyro reboot (who actually was a former hero who fell from grace). I can name several other characters who were former good guys, if not former heroes yet clearly had extremely little, if any redeemable characteristics after they fell from grace and became villains. Two-Face from the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight movie is another good example, where even his "good deeds" post-fall are not even that good (such as deciding the fate of Maroni's driver after he decided to spare Maroni (thus indirectly killing Maroni instead of killing him directly), or punching Ramirez in the face and knocking her out after it landing "sunny-side up" in her favor).

And it only makes him more of a confusing character, not a compelling one. It's sort of like how the recent Maleficent movie utterly ruined the titular character by effectively making her not evil at all, let alone Evil Incarnate.



EDIT: Besides, you can have a complex villain without giving them shades of gray, making them truly evil with no redeeming characteristics in fact. The Joker post-fall definitely qualifies as a villain with no redeeming features, a pure psychopath, and in fact his being blatantly evil is precisely why he's not only considered one of the best Batman villains, but the most well known comic book character. Heck, Palpatine had no redeemable characteristics at all, being a pure monster from the get-go, yet despite that, despite effectively being a card-carrying villain, he was surprisingly three dimensional and also considered one of the more popular villains in Star Wars (only Vader is more popular than him), and heck, of the characters in the much-shafted Prequel Trilogy, only Palpatine and Darth Maul were considered extremely well-received in terms of villains, and in terms of characters overall alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi (TVTropes even noted this). Heck, Maleficent herself, pre-reboot, was very popular precisely because of her status as a pure-evil villain with no redeeming characteristics, as was Frollo, Ursula, and the like. That's not even getting into characters like Kefka (who outside Japan at least actually rivals Sephiroth in terms of popularity, and certainly is comparable to the Joker).


I don't like villains with no redeeming qualities. They bore me eg. Voldemort from Harry Potter. I want a reason to root for them and this's difficult if they're just 'evil' and that's it. Big Boss has always been a multifaceted character ever since MG2 and I liked that.

Kefka was a good villain though....for comedic reasons mostly.


Maybe so, but then again, Palpatine was definitely one of the more popular villains despite effectively being a card-carrying villain, something even TVTropes noted.
#67Th3BlackW0lfPosted 8/4/2014 11:07:18 PM
SSJ_Jin posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


Rising's not canon.

http://i.imgur.com/mlIbMmu.gif


But it is, unless you are one of those idiots who also deny PO canoncity because wasnt directed by Kojima.
#68ScoobySnackPosted 8/5/2014 12:36:33 AM
^ Still waiting on that link.
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#69high_contrast87Posted 8/5/2014 5:20:49 AM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
SSJ_Jin posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


Rising's not canon.

http://i.imgur.com/mlIbMmu.gif


But it is, unless you are one of those idiots who also deny PO canoncity because wasnt directed by Kojima.


It doesn't matter if it's canon or not it's not part of the MGS saga and takes place after the end of the series. If you want to ignore it you can, and the same goes for PO. Both are just spin off games and not part of the latest timeline.
#70eric_otnessPosted 8/5/2014 10:29:20 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
SSJ_Jin posted...
AngryGFAQer posted...
Robin_Mask posted...
I loved it.

The thing is, throughout the entire series, all of the characters are forced to fight or be soldiers and have never found a time to rest. Always going through hard times, at least now they finally can stop being soldiers and live their own lives without problems.


And then Rising comes along and ****s on that.


Rising's not canon.

http://i.imgur.com/mlIbMmu.gif


But it is, unless you are one of those idiots who also deny PO canoncity because wasnt directed by Kojima.


It doesn't matter if it's canon or not it's not part of the MGS saga and takes place after the end of the series. If you want to ignore it you can, and the same goes for PO. Both are just spin off games and not part of the latest timeline.


Technically, neither are Metal Gear or Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake (they aren't called "Metal Gear Solid," for one thing). And Portable Ops is part of the main timeline, actually. Even Kojima confirmed that. And the trophy edition for MGS4 included in the Legacy Collection still retained its position in the in-game timelines, despite the fact that Kojima can and would have easily removed it from the cinematics if he wished (and considering how he altered the brand of cigarettes from Bal Mal to Gators in the opening for Metal Gear 2, and even altered some words in the HD Collections for Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3, he most certainly could remove MPO if he wished). Besides, back when Peace Walker was in development, the MSX2 games were in fact removed from the timeline back then, should you claim they aren't part of the timeline just because of that?