a lot of fans complain about MGS4's ending... *spoilers*

#71high_contrast87Posted 8/5/2014 6:25:28 PM
Metal Gear 1&2 were missed off as a mistake that one time and are now back on the latest one do your point is moot. PO isn't, and hasn't been on any released timelines for a while now. And no , PO isn't part of the main saga this was confirmed years ago. It's a side story at best.
It's main storyline "happened" in some form but it's best ignored or glossed over since some of it DIDNT happen according to Kojima but he won't elaborate.
#72Th3BlackW0lfPosted 8/5/2014 10:09:19 PM
@ScoobySnack, I was a little wrong about the Raiden thing, it was not recent, it was after MGS2 release, is pretty hard to find it beacuse it was a long time ago, but also remember an article stating that Kojima was pretty depressed about the whole fan backslash, the guy has a HUGE ego i cant imagine what would be a depressed Kojima.
http://spong.com/article/2938/Kojima-Raiden-inclusion-a-mistake
#73ScoobySnackPosted 8/5/2014 10:29:42 PM
Th3BlackW0lf posted...
@ScoobySnack, I was a little wrong about the Raiden thing, it was not recent, it was after MGS2 release, is pretty hard to find it beacuse it was a long time ago, but also remember an article stating that Kojima was pretty depressed about the whole fan backslash, the guy has a HUGE ego i cant imagine what would be a depressed Kojima.
http://spong.com/article/2938/Kojima-Raiden-inclusion-a-mistake


Not only is that not an interview, but the tagline isn't even Kojima's own words.
---
"Hallucination..."
The Six-Man Power Trip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhWheE_xas
#74Th3BlackW0lfPosted 8/5/2014 10:50:08 PM
Like i said i was wrong, i didnt remember if was a interview or not, i just remember reading about it a long time ago.
Edit: i found it, the recent one (well not that recent, its from 2012) was in the Official Xbox Magazine issue 54 mexican edition, is in spanish though, sadly i dont have scans.

There was a thread about it in one of the biggest spanish videogame forum
http://zonaforo.meristation.com/raiden-de-metal-gear-solid-2-no-debio-haber-existido-hideo-kojima-t1993979.html
#75ScoobySnackPosted 8/5/2014 11:12:49 PM
My translation is all screwed up, but from what I was able to piece together, how does him acknowledging Raiden's role not being generally successful to the public (which he's done in the past), translates into "Raiden should have never existed" and "Raiden was a mistake"?
---
"Hallucination..."
The Six-Man Power Trip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhWheE_xas
#76high_contrast87Posted 8/6/2014 4:42:27 AM
Raiden wasn't a mistake. It's Cyborg Raiden that was the mistake. Raiden was a great character it's just Quinton Flynn's line delivery was completely off.

The majority of "fans" crying line babies about having to play as Raiden doesn't mean s***. They were all wrong. MGS2 remains Kojima's masterpiece.
#77eric_otnessPosted 8/6/2014 8:57:01 AM(edited)
high_contrast87 posted...
Metal Gear 1&2 were missed off as a mistake that one time and are now back on the latest one do your point is moot. PO isn't, and hasn't been on any released timelines for a while now. And no , PO isn't part of the main saga this was confirmed years ago. It's a side story at best.
It's main storyline "happened" in some form but it's best ignored or glossed over since some of it DIDNT happen according to Kojima but he won't elaborate.


Maybe so, but then again, it was still included in the timeline in MGS4's trophy edition, especially the disc version for the Legacy Collection where he could have easily removed that bit during Naomi's speech, like he altered the Bal Mal cigarettes into Gator cigarettes in the rereleases for MG2. And keep in mind that that was recent. Besides, even the recent timelines have at least one mistake: The Legacy Timeline mentioned Obama's "A World Without Nuclear Weapons" speech in 2009, despite James Johnson being the president during that time.

And his comments about it "not happening" are the same as hunting for Kerotan frogs (sure, the player can technically do that in-game, but there's no way that's actually canon). He most likely meant those things that aren't necessarily needed to complete the storyline.

Besides, technically all of the Metal Gear games fit that claim as well, even Peace Walker. Don't forget, one of the radio calls to Miller in the main story of Ground Zeroes implied he was just as much tricked by Paz's cover story in Colombia as Snake was, despite his explicitly stating he knew all along she was being deceitful and what she had actually been planning all along with the implication that he was in on it in the second ending. I'll even post the specific call: "Kazuhira Miller: The rain was coming down just as hard the day we met Paz. "I only want peace for my country." I can't believe we ever bought that cover story. After Paz tried to steal Zeke from us, and we watched her get pulled beneath the waves... There was one thing I kept asking myself. Which was the real Paz and which was the lie?" Emphasis mine. In fact, other than briefly mentioning Paz's battle and some tapes, there's barely anything even pointing to Peace Walker being canon in the game, broad strokes in other words.

Also, I had little reason to be upset with Raiden (at least he actually had a very understandable reason to be upset at times), my main issue was the implication in MGS2 that morality was effectively meaningless, that reality is just perceptions, and the overall postmodernist bent. I don't like relativistic plotlines or nihilistic views, and God doesn't either. Besides, even Metal Gear Solid 2 had to hold hands a few times (Or do I really need to remind you guys about the script included in the Document of Metal Gear Solid 2?)
#78high_contrast87Posted 8/6/2014 9:23:29 AM
You're really reaching now. When someone asks Kojima if PO is canon and he says "that's difficult to say" then there's no way he's talking about the equivalent to kerotan frog hunting. That's absurd. It means what he says it means - the general main plot outline that he himself penned happened in some form but there are certainly parts of the plot that are not canonical.
#79eric_otnessPosted 8/6/2014 9:55:52 AM
high_contrast87 posted...
You're really reaching now. When someone asks Kojima if PO is canon and he says "that's difficult to say" then there's no way he's talking about the equivalent to kerotan frog hunting. That's absurd. It means what he says it means - the general main plot outline that he himself penned happened in some form but there are certainly parts of the plot that are not canonical.


Yeah, and Peace Walker is exactly the same way, as was Metal Gear Solid 2 and the MSX2 games. Heck, all of the Metal Gear games.

For example, in Ground Zeroes, the only things commented on about Peace Walker are that Paz was exposed as an enemy spy, and MSF stopped her. In one of the calls during the main story, in direct contradiction to the second ending, Miller actually implies he was hoodwinked all the same by Paz (Kazuhira Miller: The rain was coming down just as hard the day we met Paz. "I only want peace for my country." I can't believe we ever bought that cover story. After Paz tried to steal Zeke from us, and we watched her get pulled beneath the waves... There was one thing I kept asking myself. Which was the real Paz and which was the lie?"). There's barely any references to Peace Walker in there besides Paz and Chico (the most we get are tapes, and even then, the way they did it can easily be addressed with they just met the characters and they departed, sort of like the Noodle Incident from Calvin and Hobbes), a general outline of what happened, and some of that is even contradicted at times.

Metal Gear Solid 4 did the same thing with Metal Gear Solid 2, such as Snake apparently not even knowing Liquid Ocelot had possessed Ocelot despite, oh, I don't know, actually witnessing it twice, on two non-consecutive events, and even implying by the game's end that he's accepted it. That's also not getting into how lots of characters, even Solid Snake, seemed to talk about FOXHOUND's role in MGS2 as if it actually did exist as an entity when in reality it was basically shut down and the "FOXHOUND" used was a digital facsimile for a conspiracy, something even Solid Snake pointed out.

And you don't even need me to tell you just how many times the plotlines of the MSX2 games were contradicted, and not even resolved in a good way. Robin Mask even went as far as to effectively declare MGS the start of the series as a more believable realistic storyline largely because of these contradictions.

Heck, even Metal Gear Solid 2 has at least one contradiction with Metal Gear Solid: In one of the calls, Raiden will comment that President Johnson was killed "exactly the same way" Kenneth Baker was killed in Shadow Moses, when it wasn't even close to the same (specifically, Kenneth Baker died from a heart attack, while Johnson was shot by Ocelot in the back, ironically just as Johnson tried to force Raiden to shoot him), and that's not even getting into how Richard Ames and the Patriots were responsible for Jim Houseman's arrest in the aftermath of Shadow Moses in In The Darkness of Shadow Moses, when it was actually Roy Campbell who was responsible in MGS1.

Kojima even made this clear in one of his twitter posts, mentioning things would have turned out "very differently" had he actually had a desire to continue the series with each game, like Liquid actually surviving his debut game.
#80BlazingSpeedPosted 8/7/2014 3:13:27 PM
high_contrast87 posted...
Raiden wasn't a mistake. It's Cyborg Raiden that was the mistake. Raiden was a great character it's just Quinton Flynn's line delivery was completely off.

The majority of "fans" crying line babies about having to play as Raiden doesn't mean s***. They were all wrong. MGS2 remains Kojima's masterpiece.


This, except for the masterpiece part I do think that MGS2 was much better than MSG 3 and MGS4 though.

Solid Snake wasn't a bloodthirsty monster in MGS2 either.