Square Enix on what makes a Final Fantasy

#111Zetta-Honey-BoyPosted 11/29/2012 1:09:56 AM
this i already know larry.

my question was more rhetorical than anything.

you are preaching to my chior.

as someone who actually worked for EA, i know full well about the metrics and focus groups and all the soulless producers that homogenized all the creativity in game design.

im glad someone else out there knows this too.
---
-choose death-
#112TheGreatPotatoPosted 11/29/2012 1:11:15 AM
Baldur's Gate 2 + Throne of Bhaal.
---
Dresdenfall is amazing, if you know what I mean :) /wink wink
Mada status: arguing with a fat moogle.
#113mrklarrydPosted 11/29/2012 1:12:08 AM
Zetta-Honey-Boy posted...

dont they realize they arent on top anymore because they are styming the artists?
that they could make more money if they just do what they do best?


One final thing about this point. Square Enix released possibly the Best, most creative RPG they've made on a console since the PS1 era on the PS3. Little game called Nier. It was an ugly, unconventional game that gave no surface impressions of being anything but a low-budget beat em up. But anyone who's played it will tell you it's one of the best games with the Square Enix label that's been released in many, many years.

It didn't sell. The studio that made it was cannibalized and turned into an online checkers outfit or something. The development team laid off. Square Enix did not recruit these people.

So no, they don't think like you're thinking.
#114Zetta-Honey-BoyPosted 11/29/2012 1:14:58 AM
mrklarryd posted...
Zetta-Honey-Boy posted...

dont they realize they arent on top anymore because they are styming the artists?
that they could make more money if they just do what they do best?


One final thing about this point. Square Enix released possibly the Best, most creative RPG they've made on a console since the PS1 era on the PS3. Little game called Nier. It was an ugly, unconventional game that gave no surface impressions of being anything but a low-budget beat em up. But anyone who's played it will tell you it's one of the best games with the Square Enix label that's been released in many, many years.

It didn't sell. The studio that made it was cannibalized and turned into an online checkers outfit or something. The development team laid off. Square Enix did not recruit these people.

So no, they don't think like you're thinking.



nier didnt exactly get the coverage that ff13-2 got in the press.
no commercial, nor web banners or online ads.
it was a victim of no marketing that killed it.

i did my part and i played it.

nier was given the raw deal.
---
-choose death-
#115mrklarrydPosted 11/29/2012 1:16:41 AM
Zetta-Honey-Boy posted...
this i already know larry.

my question was more rhetorical than anything.

you are preaching to my chior.

as someone who actually worked for EA, i know full well about the metrics and focus groups and all the soulless producers that homogenized all the creativity in game design.

im glad someone else out there knows this too.


k good. I have a job that sort of involves a lot of this (on the consulting end) and just felt like venting about how wrong this all is.
#116Zetta-Honey-BoyPosted 11/29/2012 1:20:11 AM
mrklarryd posted...
Zetta-Honey-Boy posted...
this i already know larry.

my question was more rhetorical than anything.

you are preaching to my chior.

as someone who actually worked for EA, i know full well about the metrics and focus groups and all the soulless producers that homogenized all the creativity in game design.

im glad someone else out there knows this too.


k good. I have a job that sort of involves a lot of this (on the consulting end) and just felt like venting about how wrong this all is.




i suspect this direction was inevitable when games pull in more money than the music industry, something like this was going to happen.

its a multi billion dollar industry, how could we not forsee the industry not being taken over by souless suits?

hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.
---
-choose death-
#117YukitoRamboPosted 11/29/2012 1:24:00 AM
mrklarryd posted...
stuff


To simplify, S-E has come to a point where it has become too big to fail.

As a relatively smaller company, everyone knew each other and Sakaguchi as the lead came down to the projects himself to supervise. Being someone who knows how to make games himself, he's the kind of top brass that knows what the projects down below are doing and you can't fool him.

Wada is a businessman. He's studied to be that way and he sees the whole company mainly as a business. He doesn't care about creative vision; his field of expertise is juking the stats and making their financial report at the end of the fiscal year look good enough for investors to keep throwing money in; Cut cost here, take shortcuts there, recycle that. Lower your losses and increase revenue as much as possible. "EVERYTHING ELSE CAN GO **** THEMSELVES. THAT'S NOT MY JOB." And for the Final Fantasy series, that's currently Kitase's. And he's probably pressured by the top brass enough as he is to satisfy the execs number crunching. I can't think of nothing else as to why he's been making these poor decisions and made FFXIII lack the vision that made them wander off for like half of XIII's development time and raised cost.

It's the natural progression of videogame companies these days. Not just for BioWare as well, but also Capcom, Konami(it all came to light in Guy Cihi's rant about 'the suit guys versus the devs' when the voice acting rights issue surfaced) and Infinity Ward.
---
"...Winning is of little consequence. What's important is communicating through one's fists."
GFWL tag: DoraemonJerlun
#118jaganshi2Posted 11/29/2012 6:29:52 AM(edited)
While it's normal that most people will never embrace new generation-like things, such as the new FF's that came out. Check out any sort of board based on a long title series, or older entities in the market (Nintendo, PS...). Fans always complain with "they used to be this great now it's... or they just want your money. Take a look at the capcom boards, to the nintendo boards. It's the same complaints. "[Insert Game/company] used to be this good, now it's like they are too big to fail and just release for more money"....

I do wish people would be more open minded or knowledgeable with the Industry and how it works. The arts to the business of it. I have been a long fan of Square and especially the FF games. 4,6, and 9 where indeed my favorite FF's but in all honesty, FF13 and it's series is just SO well done that i think the anti-square/FF rants of "they are not like before" is just childish.

I've already been in the digital arts industry for about 5+ years now, and anybody who knows how cut-throat the industry is will never say anything against the Square-Enix of now. I'm not just talking about the visuals, but the actual game of FF13 is indeed a masterpiece of work. It shows that Square is that dedicated in their craft and not only want to be alive to the fans but also want to be something different for them.. and in an unbiased point of view, this (FF13) is their greatest work they've produced. Possibly the greatest work of an RPG, ever.

The whole "genius" level of all the Arts in it beats every game out there. It's not about the visuals/3d animation (which is indeed blood work to do); the music, the conceptualization and it's pain in the ass stages of making a # of concept designs in the form of from illustration to 3D, the story writing, the #'s of scripts, blah blah. That is very hard work, not just physically but emotionally, and mentally.. and given their time frame (since the markets set deadlines that they can't just disobey), they pull it off and make sure everything is set at high quality.

FF13 to FF13-2 was so well produced, it's gameplay was unique and enjoyable, it's Characters were greatly designed in personality and in image, the soundtrack was additionally outstanding, and most of all, they made sure that the fans got their money's worth with DLC contents that really make FF13-2 a game to keep your hands on for the year.Think first of how long it takes to create a 2d illustration of just one corner of a town, the number of concepts of this town the artist has to make, then providing a 3D corner of the town, to a rendered version or to a rigged version. For just one corner. Times that with the entire city, to the entire world. Plus all the new elements that will be suggested.

Then the music, how long do you think it would take to make that especially the set of choices for themes?

You kids need to realize that Square can't always stay to how it started, it has to innovate or implement new things to make sure it's RPG's do not remain static, to show that it rides on creativity and not replicate past works like a 3rd rate artist. You think FF7 would have innovated the RPG genre of it's time if Square remained the same way to the 6 FF's before it? No. So before anyone starts criticizing Square on what they are doing today, try to know more about the gaming industry. From how hard the life is... through their you will see that Square is still a great RPG industry, possibly even still the best in what they do. I know some may try to pose as know it alls and reply to me on contrary, but i know for a fact that they are still young and ignorant about the Industry therefore can only see creativity in the eyes of a normal fan who bought this game through saving their allowances.
---
Be a part of Jaganshi-mania! Just text to 2334
#119YukitoRamboPosted 11/29/2012 4:38:36 PM(edited)
jaganshi2 posted...
*just read the original up there


Kids huh? You talk about the 'older generation', then straight coming up with the idea that complainers are mostly children who are still feeding off their parents? What do you think someone like me feel when I purchased the game 2 years ago full-price hoping that it would at least deliver the amount of playable content and flexibility that XII gave, using money I EARNED? Set yourself straight because you sound like a confused man. And skip the 'I've been in the industry talk' because you can't possibly be the only one in this board who is part of it.

No one dislikes change. Most of the group of people the likes of you tend to label as 'haters' would not turn away against change. That has always been a part of FF legacy anyway. What pissed people off the most with FFXIII is the radically scaled down content and freedom that used to come with FFs since the PS era. From the first one until XII, FFs have been steadily progressing not only in graphics technology but also the amount of playable content that players can exploit. It took a few steps back in that respect with FFX, but there's still enough side-content and depth for players to enjoy. But FFXIII?

I was gonna put a long list of reasons why, but everyone who truly paid attention would already know. There is no need to waste space to explain yet again because if that person does not want to acknowledge FFXIII's issues then, he or she won't NOW.

Oh, and that crap about 'not appreciating the devs who create this grand work of art' BS? Nevermind that the team wandered off without vision for so long during development time(Toriyama straight out admitted it). Surely they didn't just cross their arms and surf the Internet during those 5 years developing the game, BUT WE PAID TO PLAY THEIR GAMES. Everything you said about the so-called 'hard work' is moot because FFXIII is no damn freeware: Millions pre-ordered the game in advance FULL PRICE.

Also, nevermind that BioWare did Dragon Age, or that Eidos made Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Those two games are even more RPG than FFXIII and XIII-2 combined.

Again, please don't spread this farce about us refusing 'change', because that is absolutely false and you're either just not mentally sound enough to grasp that concept or you're trying to whitewash this issue in S-E's favor. We just don't like halfassed products being delivered to us in shiny wrappings, because no matter how many times you try to shine feces, it still is feces.
---
"...Winning is of little consequence. What's important is communicating through one's fists."
GFWL tag: DoraemonJerlun
#120jaganshi2Posted 11/30/2012 4:19:31 AM
YukitoRambo posted...
snip</quote

Again, please don't spread this farce about us refusing 'change', because that is absolutely false and you're either just not mentally sound enough to grasp that concept or you're trying to whitewash this issue in S-E's favor. We just don't like halfassed products being delivered to us in shiny wrappings, because no matter how many times you try to shine feces, it still is feces.


Yeah, kids. Kids mentally or literally by age who can't see with in the depths of design. You gave this whole post in order to tell me off but it summed up your ignorance of the industry? "No freeware and others pre-purchasing it" moots the argument of hard work? That statement not only shows you are ignorant but also some kid trying to pose to know it all. I bet you don't even know one one % of how difficult the first stage known as the conceptual stage is, from all the amount of detailing through freehand to digital in #s of studies while keeping track of market deadlines. I do predict a reply of you pretending to know how that is like and what ever simplification you've been imagining about what the guys at square are doing.

You guys couldn't embrace change because this game plays different from the first FF that got you into the series. They ALL had striking differences after 4. This was never less of an RPG to bioware, it was it's own RPG with own style just like bioware was. You'll likely try to reply making yourself look to know more about RPG's but in the end of the day you are the basic immature buyer.

FF13 in terms of production took more creativity and hardship than bioware and the rest you've mentioned has. You can tell that by the music itself. Only those who have experience about the industry can see the talent drawn with in square in making this game. You're distaste about 13, whether you want to admit it or not, is that it doesn't play like the FF that brought you in. You are the same type of ranting fan with the same rants on square doing a "moot job", or this game not being like an RPG as what square did... that comes up in every FF board even during the time FF7 was released.
---
Be a part of Jaganshi-mania! Just text to 2334