Plot Holes

#251lightdragoon88Posted 2/7/2013 9:43:45 PM
theofficefan99 posted...
Also, I hope you know that the basis for all this arguing/confusion is because this game is so terrible at explaining things, establishing rules and limits, and following its own few rules/limits that it does imply/establish >.>


That and people trying to put other games/real world law and physic into this game.


By the way, I have to say that this is probably one of the most intense (though not really anymore) and involving debates/discussions I've had at GameFAQs. This has been enjoyable. Though it ain't over yet :p


When we aren't trying to ripped each other head off, these debates with you can be really fun.
---
LIFE IS A BEAUTY HOWL!
#252theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 9:49:52 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
Also, I hope you know that the basis for all this arguing/confusion is because this game is so terrible at explaining things, establishing rules and limits, and following its own few rules/limits that it does imply/establish >.>


That and people trying to put other games/real world law and physic into this game.


By the way, I have to say that this is probably one of the most intense (though not really anymore) and involving debates/discussions I've had at GameFAQs. This has been enjoyable. Though it ain't over yet :p


When we aren't trying to ripped each other head off, these debates with you can be really fun.


Well, yeah. maxxxxxim did that. I'm just saying that's it's "realistic" to think that Alyssa did not last long enough for her to be alive when chaos starts going crazy and creating paradoxes because the damn planet is falling. It's not a regular cave-in. And plus the datalog says that a bunch of people died when the planet's momentum stopped, and that's not long enough for it to officially be 0 AF and when the paradoxes started affecting everything. I mean, it's technically up to interpretation since the game isn't super clear with this and we don't see Alyssa's death, but I'd say that it's really grasping at straws if someone claims that Alyssa died right at 0 AF. *shrugs*

Yup! It's more fun when the debates are more relaxed. When the posts are angry and you're typing up long posts trying to prove things whilst trying to find evidence, debating isn't fun at all.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#253lightdragoon88Posted 2/7/2013 9:51:00 PM
theofficefan99 posted...


I get that. However, that's not my point. The thing is that it should not be going back into pre-0 AF territory, because that stuff is supposed to be paradox-free. If chaos inflicted pre-0 AF with a bunch of paradoxes (paradoxes of all types, including things people can and can't remember and/or notice), then things would be different and basically the timeline would become even more of a mess as it is tampering with the "true timeline," AKA a timeline with no paradoxes. The goal of the game is to erase the paradoxes so that things can go back to the one true timeline where there are no paradoxes. Toriyama/Watanabe included no time gates pre-0 AF/any part in BF for this reason, though I guess they kind of goofed up by not thinking about the possibilities that could occur based on chaos tampering with pre-0 AF/ the "true timeline" that can cause gigantic plot holes/retcons, including the possibility of there being no true timeline because people will have noticed paradoxes and become affected by it and that's not good. Basically it'll make the timeline go out of wack and crazy and it'll sort of be like a paradox within a paradox within a paradox, etc....



Well Chaos is always there in the heart of people. So in a way I don't see why it wouldn't do anything pre-0AF as Chaos as been there since the first people.


Wait....what if the Fal'Cie were hiding the paradoxes? They were good at hiding things and any person who did find out the paradoxes were purge.
---
LIFE IS A BEAUTY HOWL!
#254theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 9:53:45 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...
theofficefan99 posted...


I get that. However, that's not my point. The thing is that it should not be going back into pre-0 AF territory, because that stuff is supposed to be paradox-free. If chaos inflicted pre-0 AF with a bunch of paradoxes (paradoxes of all types, including things people can and can't remember and/or notice), then things would be different and basically the timeline would become even more of a mess as it is tampering with the "true timeline," AKA a timeline with no paradoxes. The goal of the game is to erase the paradoxes so that things can go back to the one true timeline where there are no paradoxes. Toriyama/Watanabe included no time gates pre-0 AF/any part in BF for this reason, though I guess they kind of goofed up by not thinking about the possibilities that could occur based on chaos tampering with pre-0 AF/ the "true timeline" that can cause gigantic plot holes/retcons, including the possibility of there being no true timeline because people will have noticed paradoxes and become affected by it and that's not good. Basically it'll make the timeline go out of wack and crazy and it'll sort of be like a paradox within a paradox within a paradox, etc....



Well Chaos is always there in the heart of people. So in a way I don't see why it wouldn't do anything pre-0AF as Chaos as been there since the first people.


Wait....what if the Fal'Cie were hiding the paradoxes? They were good at hiding things and any person who did find out the paradoxes were purge.


The point is, is that chaos isn't "activated" until after Lightning and co. are decrystallized. And do you mean *would do anything to pre-0 AF?

How could the fal'Cie hide things? >.> Do you mean lie about it, like the War of Transgression? Well paradoxes would directly affect civilians and there are bound to be some paradoxes where they'd know about it and remember it. Fal'Cie's can't cover that.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#255theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 9:54:09 PM
I just realized that FFXIII took some notes from the novel 1984.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#256lightdragoon88Posted 2/7/2013 10:04:53 PM(edited)
theofficefan99 posted...

The point is, is that chaos isn't "activated" until after Lightning and co. are decrystallized. And do you mean *would do anything to pre-0 AF?


Sorry it midnight here so I am going to bed after this post.

How could the fal'Cie hide things? >.> Do you mean lie about it, like the War of Transgression? Well paradoxes would directly affect civilians and there are bound to be some paradoxes where they'd know about it and remember it. Fal'Cie's can't cover that.


Well any civilian that saw or were effected by paradoxes would be covered up by the Fal'Cie or just hide it.

I mean the Fal'Cie purged a whole town, why not purge a whole paradox-infected area.

But it just a theory.

A Game Theory.
---
LIFE IS A BEAUTY HOWL!
#257roxas9001(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 10:49:48 PM
Now that we're done with the Alyssa thing, anymore issues?
---
Not changing this until DmCrap flops.
I dislike 90% of the FF fanbase.
#258theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 10:54:40 PM
lightdragoon88 posted...
theofficefan99 posted...

The point is, is that chaos isn't "activated" until after Lightning and co. are decrystallized. And do you mean *would do anything to pre-0 AF?


Sorry it midnight here so I am going to bed after this post.

How could the fal'Cie hide things? >.> Do you mean lie about it, like the War of Transgression? Well paradoxes would directly affect civilians and there are bound to be some paradoxes where they'd know about it and remember it. Fal'Cie's can't cover that.


Well any civilian that saw or were effected by paradoxes would be covered up by the Fal'Cie or just hide it.

I mean the Fal'Cie purged a whole town, why not purge a whole paradox-infected area.

But it just a theory.

A Game Theory.


'tis fine! If this debate continues tomorrow then the discussion will continue.

Ehhhh that's not really a plausible theory considering that we'd find out about the Purge and the party would question why the fal'Cie purged civilians that weren't even infected by a l'Cie, and IIRC not even the fal'Cie themselves knew about this paradox/chaos business until XIII-2 came along. The point is, is that civilians would encounter paradoxes where they'd notice misplaced/missing things, and remember what they encountered after the paradox was solved, and that's a problem, because nothing should be happening to them when they're part of the "true timeline," unaffected by paradoxes. If they discover/experience paradoxes and word spreads around, then things would be different and the timeline would be changed and this would be disastrous for the storyline. That's why they established that time gates accompany paradoxes and that's why we're not allowed to travel back into anything in the BF part of the timeline aside from a non-canon, nonsensical Paradox Ending, though I'd say that Toriyama and Watanabe goofed with Alyssa's death and Ugallu.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#259theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 11:13:59 PM
Found these, though I have no opinions on them yet because I didn't really read into these enough to form an opinion/stance on them, just found them and copied/pasted them for discussion.

"This game leads us to believe that there are two ways of "Unleashing Chaos."

1. Caius allows himself to be killed; thus killing Etro simultaneously.

2. Cocoon falls, it's that simple.


In Noel's normal timeline, Cocoon has already fallen, so how is it that Chaos wasn't unleashed then?

Or is that a giant hint that when Cocoon fell in Noel's past, that is source of Vallaha's origin?"

"
1. Dying world
- One of three things happened in 500 AF, the pillar crashes, the new cocoon crashes, or the new cocoon is successfully launched. In the first two options, chaos is unleashed (Etro's gate open too much) and destroys everything. If it's the latter, why does the world seems to be getting destroyed either way? The Academia 4XX-500 AF seemed greatly advanced to the world be in such "Ice Age" and chaos in 700 AF. If it became such through natural phenomena, then they can't prevent the world from dying.

2. Caius first fight vs Noel on Dying world
- So, only a "guardian" can kill Etro's heart which is inside Caius. And only Noel could do it. But if the requisite for this is just piercing Etro's heart while he is holding the sword, even if forced by Caius in Valhalla, why didn't he do the same in Dying world? Or why didn't he force Noel to kill him by bluffing to kill Yeul or something?

3. Caius own heart vs Etro's heart
- If Caius was shown still alive after Etro's heart is killed, this means that he had his own heart. But if only Etro's heart has the power of chaos, why can he still travel through the timeline (to void beyond where he's shown in the secret ending) and starts to release the chaos when he chooses to?

4. The transfer of Etro's heart
- The only way this fit in the story is that it was all a lie from the start. Caius didn't kill his predecessor and Noel could never have Etro's heart or succeed to Caius because if the heart was transferable, Noel would receive it when he killed Caius.

5. Orphan's death and old Cocoon
- If Orphan is dead, why does the old Cocoon still have light and can be visited?

6. Where are all the Fal'Cie?
- Shouldn't they have a word on Caius' plan? Why there doesn't seem to exist any Fal'Cie? Why aren't they doing anything? Not to mention Snow's l'Cie mark which means that they still exist.

7. Yeul and Caius purpose
- If all Yeuls are different, merely vessels with their own personality that inherit the Eyes of Etro, Caius says that he will destroy the timeline so that he and Yeul can live free of the curse. Why is the Yeul here treated as a single entity constantly dying and being reborn if in the end, there are multiple Yeuls? Not to mention, how do all of them are born exactly looking alike? And what is Yeul's own purpose? The eyes are a curse, what's the point into being able to look at the future without being able to change it?

TO BE CONTINUED
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#260theofficefan99Posted 2/7/2013 11:14:11 PM
8. Lightning dragged to Valhalla
- Why was only her who got dragged? If it was a consequence of Etro intervening on all the l'Cie's fate and they were all together at the moment, why the hell was only Lightning to be dragged with the chaos? And since we're at it, why ask Noel to bring Serah? Why not Hope, Sazh or Snow who were already trained for combat? And why only Serah remembered the past correctly? Not to mention Serah's eyes of etro. When was it bestowed it upon her? Was it Etro or Lightning? ...

9. Dream world
When Caius kills Serah and Noel, why don't they go through Etro's gate towards the realm of the dead? Why do they fall in a dream world? What happens to their pierced bodies? If Fang and Vanille are also in a dream world, why can't they go back to the real world like Noel and Serah do?

As you can see, most of the latest issues are missing links that really lack exploration to make the story coherent. I may not remember every missing link and plot hole I found through playing the game but especially in the ending I remember there were many."

"Is this a plot hole?

"When time senses something that shoudln't be there, it must write it out." Such is the piss-poor excuse for Snow's disappearance. If that is the case, why doesn't it erase all the numerous time paradoxes, very clear errors in the timeline, that I've spent hours fixing up to this point in in the story?

Stupid ass logic... >_>"

"FF13 had 1 plot hole

Well, not really plot hole but I don't know what else to call it.

1. The crew fought the last boss with literally no plan at all of how to deal with the repurcussions of that action

Vanille and Fang using Chaos to save Cocoon was all at once brilliant, ironic, out of the blue, and Deus Ex Machina"

"Is this a plot hole?
*plot spoilers I guess**


Okay, so Hope knows that the pillar is going to come down, and he has hundreds of years to have the academy folk working on a solution....

Why didn't they use all those fancy flying machines to physically take down all of cocoon in a controlled way? Sure that is a big project, but they have a couple hundred years to get it done.

They could have started at the top and taken down one load at a time. Eventually they would get to Fang and Vanille. Problem solved?

...Gran pulse is truly big enough for the residence of Cocoon so why not just estimate the damage of the fall of old Cocoon, create defensive ways to battle its crash, like: building underground society (like in Evangelion), shields, or just do something about new Cocoon, like disintegrate it bit by bit so when it finally crashes, it's not going to be so big."

Oh, and I personally don't think this is a plot hole and this is just more of a question, but how come when they go into the Void Beyond in Episode 5, why in the world is Noel retelling his story when it's supposed to be a world filled with your happiest thoughts and dreams? >.>
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin