Plot Holes

#271theofficefan99Posted 2/9/2013 9:24:01 AM
meltonbj posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
meltonbj posted...
Where does it say in the game that paradoxes can only appear after 0AF?


Time gates accompany paradoxes. If paradoxes occurred before 0 AF, we would have access to places before 0 AF via time gates. We don't have any (aside from the Paradox Ending with Vanille, which is non-canon and nonsensical anyways, since Vanille did not crystallize in Oerba, ever), so it's pretty much clear that it can't, or should not, happen.


Basically, no. The paradox ending is not part of the mainline, but it is canon in that that is the result should certain events have played out. In simple turns, whilst it didn't happen, it was possible to happen within the rules of the world.

The reason more time gates do not appear in the past is because Toriyama is a bad writer and couldn't weave that much together.

Saying "it's pretty much clear" is a huge assumption in a game written by Toriyama. He is that bad.


Well the reason as to why it's non-canon is because... well, Vanille was never crystallized in Oerba. She was crystallized in the Pulse Vestige, with Fang. So how the hell does that work? >.> lol

Yes, precisely, and he couldn't make it work at all, especially since there are no rules when it comes to how chaos works and going back into pre-0 AF territory can make the plot even more incomprehensible and stupid than it already is.

Yes, he is that bad lol. Yeah, I pretty much figured out a few pages ago that there is absolutely no way we'll ever have this argument finished because the game does not provide sufficient information on many aspects of the plot, and the few rules that it does establish, it breaks in multiple instances. So it's pretty much impossible.
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"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#272theofficefan99Posted 2/9/2013 9:31:30 AM
maxxxximum posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
Well, yeah. maxxxxxim did that. I'm just saying that's it's "realistic" to think that Alyssa did not last long enough for her to be alive when chaos starts going crazy and creating paradoxes because the damn planet is falling. It's not a regular cave-in. And plus the datalog says that a bunch of people died when the planet's momentum stopped, and that's not long enough for it to officially be 0 AF and when the paradoxes started affecting everything. I mean, it's technically up to interpretation since the game isn't super clear with this and we don't see Alyssa's death, but I'd say that it's really grasping at straws if someone claims that Alyssa died right at 0 AF. *shrugs*


That's the thing though. It was a regular cave in. They were hiding in ruins. The ceiling caved in. The force of a ceiling falling from a certain height will be exactly the same whether it falls because it's old or because there's an H bomb going off a block away. Cocoon's fall was enough to cause all but the stablest roofs to cave in. Some lucky people were under those sections of roof. It was really just a super earthquake. Look at tornadoes that break houses. People are pulled out from under tons of rubble alive after several hours. I don't see why it's so hard to believe that she was fatally wounded then died while still buried after the paradox threshold. I'm sure tons of people were killed instantly and a bunch were probably also gotten out of the wreckage alive only to die at the infirmary of their wounds.

lightdragoon88 posted...
That and people trying to put other games/real world law and physic into this game.


When did I do this? I use real world logic for things like gravity and for evidence for why a fantasy character should be able to survive things that real life people can. All time travel assertations have been u.....


Look at the video of Alyssa explaining how she died. She said that she was caved in as soldiers were pulling out and then light surrounded her and then she died. I believe I posted a link a few pages back... I have to go soon but I can probably find it and post it again. If Alyssa didn't die immediately, she did not last longer than a few minutes, and I doubt that that's good enough for her to be part of 0 AF, and based on so many bits of datalog information and developer interviews and whatnot, the way they describe Alyssa's time of death makes it sound like it's before 0 AF, and not exactly at 0 AF. But, if I have to be completely fair, because we did not see Alyssa's death and we can only rely on tons of bits of contradictory and/or vague bits of information, it is up to interpretation. Shows just how much the writing ******* sucks..

"That whole "If you discover the meaning of some ancient text then history will rearrange itself to include the culture that wrote the text" thing was written by an Academia student that was very high on something at the time. It pretty much equates to "The past only happened if people believe it happened and whatever people believe is the actual past". It doesn't even begin to make sense."

My head hurts... who said this, and when?


And yeah, it's pretty much clear now that the game is way too vague and contradictory with its information, and there are way too few rules that it even breaks in multiple instances. Ridiculous.
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"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#273theofficefan99Posted 2/9/2013 9:34:05 AM
lightdragoon88 posted...
theofficefan99 posted...


'tis fine! If this debate continues tomorrow then the discussion will continue.

Ehhhh that's not really a plausible theory considering that we'd find out about the Purge and the party would question why the fal'Cie purged civilians that weren't even infected by a l'Cie, and IIRC not even the fal'Cie themselves knew about this paradox/chaos business until XIII-2 came along. The point is, is that civilians would encounter paradoxes where they'd notice misplaced/missing things, and remember what they encountered after the paradox was solved, and that's a problem, because nothing should be happening to them when they're part of the "true timeline," unaffected by paradoxes. If they discover/experience paradoxes and word spreads around, then things would be different and the timeline would be changed and this would be disastrous for the storyline. That's why they established that time gates accompany paradoxes and that's why we're not allowed to travel back into anything in the BF part of the timeline aside from a non-canon, nonsensical Paradox Ending, though I'd say that Toriyama and Watanabe goofed with Alyssa's death and Ugallu.



Well we don't see the Fal'Cie in XIII worry about them since there were none in XIII.

Now in XIII-2, Adam was very interested in the paradoxes.


In the case for Alyssa....was there anyone around when she was dead in the true timeline to notice she alive now? The only ones who saw her died (her friends in the purge) are dead in the paradox timeline.


Adam was man-made >.>

No, of course not. But she's basically lucky. If chaos can just flimsily go back into pre-0 AF territory, then there's no way that there won't be paradoxes that people will notice, such as having misplaced items/people/monsters/etc. etc., because chaos does a bunch of random **** with no rhyme or reason as to why and it's pretty much a given that these types of paradoxes can occur. Alyssa's paradox was a more unique case, you could say, but that doesn't mean **** because her paradox was caused by chaos and chaos does random ****.
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"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#274roxas9001(Topic Creator)Posted 2/9/2013 1:59:19 PM(edited)
The Aylssa crap isn't a plot hole, can we move on now.
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#275_Dim_Posted 2/9/2013 2:01:10 PM
"because chaos does a bunch of random **** with no rhyme or reason as to why and it's pretty much a given that these types of paradoxes can occur."

That's why it's called chaos... and there's no order in chaos.

LOL.
#276lamerhaterPosted 2/9/2013 2:05:53 PM
Pretty much every inconsistency in the entire game series can be hand waved away with "Chaos did this" , "Caius had a secret plan" and "Noel's in love with Yeul."
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#277arvilinoPosted 2/9/2013 2:10:46 PM(edited)
theofficefan99 posted...

Look at the video of Alyssa explaining how she died. She said that she was caved in as soldiers were pulling out and then light surrounded her and then she died. I believe I posted a link a few pages back... I have to go soon but I can probably find it and post it again. If Alyssa didn't die immediately, she did not last longer than a few minutes, and I doubt that that's good enough for her to be part of 0 AF, and based on so many bits of datalog information and developer interviews and whatnot, the way they describe Alyssa's time of death makes it sound like it's before 0 AF, and not exactly at 0 AF. But, if I have to be completely fair, because we did not see Alyssa's death and we can only rely on tons of bits of contradictory and/or vague bits of information, it is up to interpretation. Shows just how much the writing ******* sucks..
"



FFXIII-2 datalog entry:

During the catastrophe of 0 AF, a gigantic crystal pillar appeared and caught Cocoon in its embrace. This miracle was the work of Fang and Vanille, two women who sacrificed themselves to achieve the impossible.

In the centuries that follow, however, erosion weakens the massive structure. This second threat to Cocoon triggers a war among its people, and the resulting violence brings the sphere crashing to the ground. The apocalyptic age in which Noel was born is what remains of the world after those tragic events come to pass.


Don't claim the datalog information suggests something when it suggests the exact opposite.
#278maxxxximumPosted 2/9/2013 2:13:52 PM
theofficefan99 posted...
maxxxximum posted...
"That whole "If you discover the meaning of some ancient text then history will rearrange itself to include the culture that wrote the text" thing was written by an Academia student that was very high on something at the time. It pretty much equates to "The past only happened if people believe it happened and whatever people believe is the actual past". It doesn't even begin to make sense."


My head hurts... who said this, and when?


Academy Datafile

With our continuing progress into paradox research, we've come to learn that the future can influence the past. Once events in the future are decided, the past is altered to support that outcome.

For people in the future, the past is like an unopened box. Say, for example, at a certain point in time, someone makes a discovery in a set of ruins and learns a fact about the past. In that instant of understanding, past reality is defined.

But then the question must be asked: who, along the entire span of history, is considered to be 'in the future'?


Basically claiming the past changed to match the discovery made at the ruin site. It is, in my opinion, one of the stupidest lines ever published in fictional history.
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#279lamerhaterPosted 2/9/2013 2:19:54 PM
In a less literal sense, the things you do in the present do affect your perception of the past in general. When we discover a new set of ruins we can only make interpretations of what we've discovered, leading to the point of view that we'd acquired. While we can't actively change the direct past, I think the saying goes "The more times we repeat something, the truer it becomes?"
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#280lightdragoon88Posted 2/9/2013 2:21:42 PM(edited)
maxxxximum posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
maxxxximum posted...
"That whole "If you discover the meaning of some ancient text then history will rearrange itself to include the culture that wrote the text" thing was written by an Academia student that was very high on something at the time. It pretty much equates to "The past only happened if people believe it happened and whatever people believe is the actual past". It doesn't even begin to make sense."


My head hurts... who said this, and when?


Academy Datafile

With our continuing progress into paradox research, we've come to learn that the future can influence the past. Once events in the future are decided, the past is altered to support that outcome.

For people in the future, the past is like an unopened box. Say, for example, at a certain point in time, someone makes a discovery in a set of ruins and learns a fact about the past. In that instant of understanding, past reality is defined.

But then the question must be asked: who, along the entire span of history, is considered to be 'in the future'?


Basically claiming the past changed to match the discovery made at the ruin site. It is, in my opinion, one of the stupidest lines ever published in fictional history.




Nah..that goes to Kingdom Hearts and all the "Heart" stuff.

Especially Dream Drop Distance with world being asleep and recreating past events and people who aren't there anymore.
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