Plot Holes

#301lamerhaterPosted 2/10/2013 10:50:52 AM
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.

Edit: The real and only important plot hole is how Yeul can show up in New Bodhum 3 AF and then showing up 10 AF, still looking the same age.


Some people just age really well. I don't actually expect them to make multiple models for Yeul.
---
The official Penelo of the Duodecim Boards.
"I'll be going too. Every good sky pirate has a partner, right?"
#302theofficefan99Posted 2/10/2013 10:52:34 AM
lamerhater posted...
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.

Edit: The real and only important plot hole is how Yeul can show up in New Bodhum 3 AF and then showing up 10 AF, still looking the same age.


Some people just age really well. I don't actually expect them to make multiple models for Yeul.


I wouldn't say that that's a plot hole. That's just laziness from the creators. Just like with Dajh.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#303ayalorenPosted 2/10/2013 10:55:23 AM
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.


It was warped after Lightning and co. decrystallized.

The thing is, the paradoxes didn't make her crystallized along with Fang and Vanille. It "wrote her out of history," and made the party believe that she is crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, when she is really in Valhalla, now serving Etro. It's only speculation from the characters that she died/was crystallized. There is no way chaos actually went back in time before 0 AF and caused Lightning to be one of the three people to become Ragnarok and crystallize the falling Cocoon.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120318031232/finalfantasy/images/f/f5/Crystallized_Coccon_at_night.png

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/archive/9/94/20100320202007!Final_Fantasy_XIII_Logo.jpg

As you can see here, the crystallized Cocoon in XIII-2 is exactly the same as the one in XIII's logo/ending before any of this paradox business happens, so Lightning didn't actually get crystallized along with Fang and Vanille.

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.


Did I say any of that? She was written out if history after the battle with Orphan according to Hope, I never said anything about her becoming Ragnarok. Chaos still warped the timeline which affected the fall. That's what the flashbacks were showing.
---
We can burn out like candles under that paper moon.
#304theofficefan99Posted 2/10/2013 11:06:03 AM
ayaloren posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.


It was warped after Lightning and co. decrystallized.

The thing is, the paradoxes didn't make her crystallized along with Fang and Vanille. It "wrote her out of history," and made the party believe that she is crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, when she is really in Valhalla, now serving Etro. It's only speculation from the characters that she died/was crystallized. There is no way chaos actually went back in time before 0 AF and caused Lightning to be one of the three people to become Ragnarok and crystallize the falling Cocoon.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120318031232/finalfantasy/images/f/f5/Crystallized_Coccon_at_night.png

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/archive/9/94/20100320202007!Final_Fantasy_XIII_Logo.jpg

As you can see here, the crystallized Cocoon in XIII-2 is exactly the same as the one in XIII's logo/ending before any of this paradox business happens, so Lightning didn't actually get crystallized along with Fang and Vanille.

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.


Did I say any of that? She was written out if history after the battle with Orphan according to Hope, I never said anything about her becoming Ragnarok. Chaos still warped the timeline which affected the fall. That's what the flashbacks were showing.


As I said...

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.

She was whisked away in Valhalla. This is what actually happened. You see her get whisked away into Valhalla, and the others believe that she was crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that didn't actually happen. Nothing different actually happened to her. She did go through all those events in XIII; none of that changed. She was simply taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that obviously didn't happen. There aren't two Lightnings.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#305ayalorenPosted 2/10/2013 11:08:32 AM
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.


It was warped after Lightning and co. decrystallized.

The thing is, the paradoxes didn't make her crystallized along with Fang and Vanille. It "wrote her out of history," and made the party believe that she is crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, when she is really in Valhalla, now serving Etro. It's only speculation from the characters that she died/was crystallized. There is no way chaos actually went back in time before 0 AF and caused Lightning to be one of the three people to become Ragnarok and crystallize the falling Cocoon.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120318031232/finalfantasy/images/f/f5/Crystallized_Coccon_at_night.png

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/archive/9/94/20100320202007!Final_Fantasy_XIII_Logo.jpg

As you can see here, the crystallized Cocoon in XIII-2 is exactly the same as the one in XIII's logo/ending before any of this paradox business happens, so Lightning didn't actually get crystallized along with Fang and Vanille.

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.


Did I say any of that? She was written out if history after the battle with Orphan according to Hope, I never said anything about her becoming Ragnarok. Chaos still warped the timeline which affected the fall. That's what the flashbacks were showing.


As I said...

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.

She was whisked away in Valhalla. This is what actually happened. You see her get whisked away into Valhalla, and the others believe that she was crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that didn't actually happen. Nothing different actually happened to her. She did go through all those events in XIII; none of that changed. She was simply taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that obviously didn't happen. There aren't two Lightnings.


And that's your conclusion and misinterpretation of what I wrote.
---
We can burn out like candles under that paper moon.
#306theofficefan99Posted 2/10/2013 11:14:32 AM
ayaloren posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
theofficefan99 posted...
ayaloren posted...
The timeline was warped right after the final battle, though. That's when Lightning was erased, so the entire fall of Cocoon was warped as well.


It was warped after Lightning and co. decrystallized.

The thing is, the paradoxes didn't make her crystallized along with Fang and Vanille. It "wrote her out of history," and made the party believe that she is crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, when she is really in Valhalla, now serving Etro. It's only speculation from the characters that she died/was crystallized. There is no way chaos actually went back in time before 0 AF and caused Lightning to be one of the three people to become Ragnarok and crystallize the falling Cocoon.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120318031232/finalfantasy/images/f/f5/Crystallized_Coccon_at_night.png

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/archive/9/94/20100320202007!Final_Fantasy_XIII_Logo.jpg

As you can see here, the crystallized Cocoon in XIII-2 is exactly the same as the one in XIII's logo/ending before any of this paradox business happens, so Lightning didn't actually get crystallized along with Fang and Vanille.

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.


Did I say any of that? She was written out if history after the battle with Orphan according to Hope, I never said anything about her becoming Ragnarok. Chaos still warped the timeline which affected the fall. That's what the flashbacks were showing.


As I said...

For the paradoxes to actually affect history pre-fall, Lightning actually had to have been dead/crystallized along with Vanille and Fang pre-fall. That didn't happen. She was whisked away and taken to Valhalla. All the game states is that she was erased and people came to the conclusion that she's up there with Vanille and Fang, or dead, and Etro did this so that no one would know that Lightning is in Valhalla, I suppose.

She was whisked away in Valhalla. This is what actually happened. You see her get whisked away into Valhalla, and the others believe that she was crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that didn't actually happen. Nothing different actually happened to her. She did go through all those events in XIII; none of that changed. She was simply taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she crystallized along with Vanille and Fang, and that obviously didn't happen. There aren't two Lightnings.


And that's your conclusion and misinterpretation of what I wrote.


I didn't misinterpret anything. You are implying that chaos changed the events of XIII when it didn't. Nothing about what happened in the final battle or the ending was changed in XIII-2. Lightning was taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she was crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, which didn't actually happen.

I'm going out for now, but I'll be back. Thanks for the interesting discussions again, y'all.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#307Elice_CarolPosted 2/10/2013 11:22:22 AM
From: theofficefan99 | #296
While I do realize it's a bit of a stretch, since the game doesn't provide sufficient information in order to completely prove it, but the fact that Alyssa is in the game at all is a problem for me. She dies before chaos is unleashed, and this means that she is part of the true timeline, and it's a problem that she is affected by chaos at all, since this means that chaos can tamper with the true timeline, and this means that there are bound to be other paradoxes that chaos created pre-0 AF that citizens will notice, such as missing items/people, misplaced monsters, physical distortions, etc. etc., just like how it is in XIII-2, and this is a problem because this would be tampering with the true timeline, and people would notice that there are weird things going on, and things would be different, pretty much destroying any semblance of a "true timeline" and this would also potentially mean a change of events from XIII.

There are people arguing with me saying that it isn't a problem at all.That's about the jist of it. There were pages of arguments as to when 0 AF exactly started, but it just hit me that when 0 AF started is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.


It's not a problem for me, because I believe there is no true timeline. The true timeline would have existed if Lightning and pals stayed crystallized, but Cocoon still falls and Noel still ends up as the last fella alive. Right now, such a timeline's existence doesn't matter, because Etro is dead and, excluding Noel's existence, all of the paradoxes have dissipated. Lightning and pals can exist now without being paradoxes because Etro paid the price for their continued survival with their life.

Alyssa? I never cared about that Mei Ling wannabe.
---
"The only thing that gets me high is the musky scent of my enemy's fear.'' - Stephen Colbert
http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n496/Elice_Carol/
#308ayalorenPosted 2/10/2013 11:37:16 AM
theofficefan99 posted...


I didn't misinterpret anything. You are implying that chaos changed the events of XIII when it didn't. Nothing about what happened in the final battle or the ending was changed in XIII-2. Lightning was taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she was crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, which didn't actually happen.

I'm going out for now, but I'll be back. Thanks for the interesting discussions again, y'all.


That wasn't it.
---
We can burn out like candles under that paper moon.
#309theofficefan99Posted 2/10/2013 12:17:58 PM
Elice_Carol posted...
From: theofficefan99 | #296
While I do realize it's a bit of a stretch, since the game doesn't provide sufficient information in order to completely prove it, but the fact that Alyssa is in the game at all is a problem for me. She dies before chaos is unleashed, and this means that she is part of the true timeline, and it's a problem that she is affected by chaos at all, since this means that chaos can tamper with the true timeline, and this means that there are bound to be other paradoxes that chaos created pre-0 AF that citizens will notice, such as missing items/people, misplaced monsters, physical distortions, etc. etc., just like how it is in XIII-2, and this is a problem because this would be tampering with the true timeline, and people would notice that there are weird things going on, and things would be different, pretty much destroying any semblance of a "true timeline" and this would also potentially mean a change of events from XIII.

There are people arguing with me saying that it isn't a problem at all.That's about the jist of it. There were pages of arguments as to when 0 AF exactly started, but it just hit me that when 0 AF started is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.


It's not a problem for me, because I believe there is no true timeline. The true timeline would have existed if Lightning and pals stayed crystallized, but Cocoon still falls and Noel still ends up as the last fella alive. Right now, such a timeline's existence doesn't matter, because Etro is dead and, excluding Noel's existence, all of the paradoxes have dissipated. Lightning and pals can exist now without being paradoxes because Etro paid the price for their continued survival with their life.

Alyssa? I never cared about that Mei Ling wannabe.


Well, to you there isn't one, but there really is one, which is the time before XIII-2 that wasn't affected by paradoxes. That part of the timeline cannot be touched because if chaos can just flimsily create paradoxes like the Alyssa one, then it is quite obvious that there will be many other types of paradoxes that affect the pre-0 AF timeline that people will notice and remember, such as missing people/items, misplaced monsters, and physical distortions, which is a problem, as this would mean that things would be different. The creators didn't intend to put paradoxes in the pre-0 AF timeline for this reason.

lol, I don't really care for Alyssa, either, but it's a problem for me.
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin
#310theofficefan99Posted 2/10/2013 12:18:30 PM
ayaloren posted...
theofficefan99 posted...


I didn't misinterpret anything. You are implying that chaos changed the events of XIII when it didn't. Nothing about what happened in the final battle or the ending was changed in XIII-2. Lightning was taken to Valhalla, and the party believed that she was crystallized along with Fang and Vanille, which didn't actually happen.

I'm going out for now, but I'll be back. Thanks for the interesting discussions again, y'all.


That wasn't it.


Then what is it?
---
"Dyin' is easy. It's the livin' that's hard..." Grim Reaper, Maximo vs. The Army of Zin