Doesn't anyone realize how brilliant the FF13 series battle system really is?

#51tiornysPosted 8/13/2013 6:55:57 AM
wolf rider posted...
I imagine most people who don't like FFXIII's battle system just don't find tweaking paradigms for marginally better results to be very fun, rewarding or substantial gameplay.

I imagine most people who don't like FFXIII's battle system don't understand how much better the game plays with a good paradigm deck. I'm not suggesting that the average player should be constantly tweaking their deck, but there's a big difference between the kind of deck you want for handling bosses and the kind of deck you want for most other fights. I think it's very reasonable to set up a deck that ignores bosses while planning to alter the deck when a boss fight is immanent or stumbled upon.

When your deck has to handle everything, that means it has to handle the most difficult fights, which calls for 3-4 defensively-oriented paradigms. The deck needs at least one offensive paradigm which means that buffs and debuffs tend to be squeezed into one or two paradigms--usually defensive ones at that. Here's a proto-typical "handle everything" deck (lifted from the official strategy guide):

Lightning/Fang/Hope
RAV/COM/RAV (Relentless Assault)
RAV/COM/MED (Diversity)
COM/SEN/RAV (Delta Attack)
COM/SEN/MED (Solidarity)
MED/SEN/SYN (Protection)
MED/SAB/SYN (Evened Odds)

Given that most wandering encounters don't require you to use very many defensive measures, take a look at that deck and consider which paradigms you'd want to use in most fights. I see Relentless Assault, and, um, well, Relentless Assault. I'm sure I'd wind up using Diversity for healing and maybe Delta Attack or Evened Odds early in a battle, but I'm certainly not wanting to use those paradigms when fighting a bunch of Oozes or Imps or Leeches or Bird-men or Soldier mooks or....

People complain that there's no strategy. People complain that there's only one way to kill things. I think decks like the above are one of the primary culprits. If I had that deck, I'd use Relentless Assault against everything, because it's the only good paradigm in most fights! So, what do I think would work better? Something like this:

Lightning/Fang/Hope
RAV/COM/SYN (Decimation)
RAV/COM/RAV (Relentless Assault)
COM/COM/RAV (Aggression)
MED/SEN/MED (Combat Clinic)
RAV/SAB/RAV (Smart Bomb)
RAV/SAB/SYN (Guerrilla)

With this subtle shift in philosophy ("it's ok to change my deck for boss fights"), I suddenly have options. I can get buffs without debuffs. I can get debuffs without buffs. I can get both at the same time, or neither.

Furthermore, while I'm establishing buffs and/or debuffs, my other characters are not just marking time; instead, they are aggressively advancing the battle plan by building up enemy chain gauges. I have five paradigms I'd be happy using against random mooks, and the sixth will certainly see use for rapid healing (it also doubles as emergency recovery when necessary). This is much more conducive to a variety of active battle plans.

Facing a large group of relatively weak enemies? Hang out in Decimation for Protect to reduce the amount of healing I'll need to do, then shift over to Aggression and lay down some Blitzes in their midst. Consider running to Relentless Assault for Thundara or Watera chain building, or just keep Blitzing away. A single tough enemy? Shift to Smart Bomb to Slow it down while rapidly building towards stagger. Finish staggering in Relentless Assault and use Aggression for a rapid kill. Two or three of those enemies? Head for Guerrilla, followed by Smart Bomb into Relentless Assault, recover in Combat Clinic, repeat.

The plan for those groups with the catch-all deck? Relentless Assault, Diversity to heal. Oh, and maybe open with a few rounds of Evened Odds in the last scenario.

A bit of tweaking seems very worthwhile.
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#52Elice_CarolPosted 8/13/2013 7:08:29 AM
Oi tiornys, what was your strategy for Attacus? I was more focused on defeating him rather than getting 5 stars, so I don't think I implemented a good paradigm deck.
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#53tiornysPosted 8/13/2013 8:15:12 AM
Elice_Carol posted...
Oi tiornys, what was your strategy for Attacus? I was more focused on defeating him rather than getting 5 stars, so I don't think I implemented a good paradigm deck.

Hmmm. Strategies against Attacus change quite a bit as development levels change. For example, if you take him on shortly after beating the game (or before that point), you might want to use a SEN full-time, but if you're at max crystarium, you probably don't need one at all.

This is mostly theory-craft, unfortunately; when I last fought Attacus, I didn't know anywhere near as much about the battle system as I do now. Are you planning to go and fight him for the 5-star, or are you just curious? If the former, I can do some testing to work out any kinks in the strategy.

For late postgame, I would probably control Fang with Snow and Lightning (the three best physical attackers), and try the following deck:

Fang/Snow/Lightning
SAB/SYN/SYN (Superiority)
SAB/MED/MED (Perseverance)
RAV/RAV/RAV (Tri-disaster)
SYN/MED/SAB (Evened Odds)
COM/COM/COM (Cerberus)
COM/MED/COM (Tireless Charge)

Inflict Slow and Curse and maybe Deshell while Snow and Light buff the party, followed by chain-building in Tri-disaster (be sure to alternate abilities). When healing is needed, or if Slow/Curse falls off, use Perseverance (and re-inflict Slow and Curse even if they haven't worn off) or Superiority (to add or replace buffs). Lots of buffs and debuffs--but no Deprotect--helps build as much chain as possible as quickly as possible before triggering Attacus's next blade.

Once enough chain has been built (depends on the weapon upgrades you have, probably want 300-400%), use Evened Odds to cast Bravera on the party while Lightning inflicts Deprotect and Snow makes sure everyone's HP is topped off. Then use Cerberus to rapidly deplete his HP, switching into Tireless Charge as needed. Superiority (Slow, Haste, Protect?) and Evened Odds (Bravera, Deprotect) should be used if necessary.

Another deck that follows the same general plan with some different emphasis would be as follows:
Fang/Snow/Lightning
SYN/SYN/SYN or SAB/SYN/SYN
SAB/MED/MED
RAV/RAV/RAV
SYN/COM/COM
COM/COM/SAB
COM/COM/COM

This deck relies on Renew for healing during the kill phase.
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#54Elice_CarolPosted 8/13/2013 8:29:29 AM
Sweet, thanks. Also, if you see HAAH around, ask him why moot is so fond of Naruto.
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#55destrian522Posted 8/13/2013 7:44:06 PM
Without nuts upgrades (T3* weapons and Dark Matter accessories), going through the damage dealing portion of the Attacus fight will be very dangerous, even at max Crystarium. Meditate is devastating, and the dispelling will be frustrating to say the least.

You could chain higher to make up for lacking stats (in order to push for a transformation delay strategy), but you've got the target time to compete with. It's safer to just use Offensive Screen (COM/COM/SEN) and either another copy of Offensive Screen or a copy of Solidarity (COM/MED/SEN) for damage dealing, depending on how strong you are.
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#56HAAH_WAAWPosted 8/13/2013 8:40:35 PM
Elice_Carol posted...
Sweet, thanks. Also, if you see HAAH around, ask him why moot is so fond of Naruto.

that's what you were getting at?
#57fftspPosted 8/13/2013 9:53:53 PM
One thing I would've wished for is that they keep the LR battle exactly mechanics the same for the character you control, but have other party members be managed through paradigm shift or maybe gambit like system and then you can switch to any character you want on the fly, if you understand what I'm saying
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#58LightningPoohPosted 8/13/2013 11:44:15 PM
tiornys posted...
Very long post on Attacus


*reads 2 sentences*...

...*brain explodes*
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#59MalakTawusPosted 8/14/2013 2:55:02 AM
fftsp posted...
One thing I would've wished for is that they keep the LR battle exactly mechanics the same for the character you control, but have other party members be managed through paradigm shift or maybe gambit like system and then you can switch to any character you want on the fly, if you understand what I'm saying


Basically some sort of fusion between LR's system and FFXII's system where you can also switch characters like in Star Ocean games?


If so, that would be cool, maybe they'll do something like that in future FF games, depending on how well LR's system will be received.
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#60fftspPosted 8/14/2013 7:54:32 AM
MalakTawus posted...
fftsp posted...
One thing I would've wished for is that they keep the LR battle exactly mechanics the same for the character you control, but have other party members be managed through paradigm shift or maybe gambit like system and then you can switch to any character you want on the fly, if you understand what I'm saying


Basically some sort of fusion between LR's system and FFXII's system where you can also switch characters like in Star Ocean games?


If so, that would be cool, maybe they'll do something like that in future FF games, depending on how well LR's system will be received.


Yes, pretty much like that and sadly I don't think the LR(and 13) battle system will be used again, makes me wish they used this battle system in 13-2 that way 13-3 would refine it even more.
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