So now that the XIII series is over and people have more or less calmed down...

#51Gaming_EsquirePosted 7/8/2014 6:28:17 AMmessage detail
CatMuto posted...
There's slugging yourself through an entire game to get to the end, and then there's a game that you just can't get yourself to finish because so many parts of it either annoy or bore you. VII's entire first Disc felt very slow, very repetitive and boring. People told me that the story gets better from Disc 2 onwards... I don't think a game should force me to have to go through several hours (I forget how long the first disc took me) of slow pacing before I get to "the good part".


Kitty Cat, that makes no sense. You think the first dist is slow, repetitive and boring. "People told you" it get better on Disc 2. So what do you do? Play the "repetitive and boring" part 3-5 times over and over and then quit before you even get to what you have been told is the "good part." Logical.

Yeah, I gotta go back to:

C-F
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#52Onion_JrPosted 7/8/2014 9:03:32 AMmessage detail
tiornys posted...
Onion_Jr posted...
The first game had problems, no doubt about that. The gameplay was far too simple and repetitive considering the game's length.... LR went even further, and produced a battle system that is complex, flexible and entertaining.

I have a problem with the formulation of these comments: namely, the implication that FFXIII's battle system was neither complex nor flexible. It is both of these things (and that makes it, IMO, quite entertaining), and since you've stated in another topic that you intend to pursue FFXIII's Platinum, I think you'll enjoy the experience a lot more if you take what you've learned from LR and look for ways to apply those lessons in FFXIII. FFXIII lacks LR's mechanical incentives for improving your combat performance, but I think the intangible incentives are plenty of reward.


It may very well be that I'll look at the combat system differently after beating LR. But the first time I played XIII I didn't really feel like I had an incentive to do much else than spam the X button with reckless abandon. Mostly because the game didn't require me to do so. Once I got to a new area and learned an effective strategy against the enemies I didn't really need to change my tactics.

But hey, it's been a couple years, so I'll see how it goes.
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#53tiornysPosted 7/8/2014 9:44:18 AMmessage detail
Onion_Jr posted...
It may very well be that I'll look at the combat system differently after beating LR. But the first time I played XIII I didn't really feel like I had an incentive to do much else than spam the X button with reckless abandon. Mostly because the game didn't require me to do so. Once I got to a new area and learned an effective strategy against the enemies I didn't really need to change my tactics.

But hey, it's been a couple years, so I'll see how it goes.

That's exactly what I meant when I said FFXIII didn't have the same mechanical incentives as LR. Lots of strategies are effective enough to allow you to limp or grind your way through an area. Most of those strategies aren't anywhere near good, let alone optimal, but they are functional.

There is a subtle yet important difference between a game lacking complexity/variety/depth, and game having those things but not requiring you to explore/use them. Most FF games--FFXIII included--fall into the latter category. However, most FF battle systems are pretty fun regardless of whether you're mashing your way through battles or applying deeper strategies. Either way--unless you're engaged in some sort of challenge play--the battles are likely to be rather quick, and even if they're repetitive there's a certain enjoyment in feeling powerful enough to roflstomp the enemy.

This is not really the case in FFXIII. Mashing your way through FFXIII involves the use of inefficient strategies, which leads to lengthy battles. During those lengthy battles, you're doing the same thing over and over. Long and repetitive = tedious and boring, and this recipe does very little to make you feel strong and powerful. By contrast, fighting efficiently allows you to end battles much faster while requiring you to make constant adjustments to your strategy and tactics. Quick and varied = fun and exciting, especially as this approach does (at least for me) inspire those feelings of power and being able to roflstomp the enemy. That's the intrinsic reward, and hopefully it'll work out for you as well.
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#54DarknessXSeekerPosted 7/8/2014 7:25:30 PMmessage detail
I liked her in XIII when she was a soldier that was trying to save her little sister. But when she became a valkyrie/goddess in XIII-2 and LR it just ruined her character IMO.
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#55astrophysPosted 7/9/2014 12:20:05 PMmessage detail(edited)
I never really understood the ferocious hate for XIII either.



I will admit some disappointment with XIII-2…. it really became much too easy in comparison to the previous XIII….. that's my chief complaint about the game. It actually made some good refinements (such as the option to using X- or W- paradigms) but there were just other issues (such as the extreme ease compared to the original) that made it feel less satisfying.

There are issues with its story too, but I tend to value gameplay considerations as the first concern before considering story.

I have mixed feelings on Caius, as while I find him a cool character (and his actor, Liam O'Brien, is one of my favorite VAs), he also feels grossly overpowered for the narrative and there are too many plot contrivances to work in his favor…. I haven't actually finished XIII-2 yet, but I've already learned about the ending anyways.

Despite this, I don't hate XIII-2. Even if I don't get around to finishing it, I still feel like I got my money's worth, despite the aforementioned issues…. I might even one day go ahead and finish it anyways…. the bigger issue was that while I still got enough fun out of it (despite the ease), it feels like a case of wasted potential…. it could have been better than it was.



That said, Lightning Returns looks like a fun game, so I'm planning to pick it up shortly.
#56Onion_JrPosted 7/9/2014 5:20:14 PMmessage detail
tiornys posted...
Onion_Jr posted...
It may very well be that I'll look at the combat system differently after beating LR. But the first time I played XIII I didn't really feel like I had an incentive to do much else than spam the X button with reckless abandon. Mostly because the game didn't require me to do so. Once I got to a new area and learned an effective strategy against the enemies I didn't really need to change my tactics.

But hey, it's been a couple years, so I'll see how it goes.

That's exactly what I meant when I said FFXIII didn't have the same mechanical incentives as LR. Lots of strategies are effective enough to allow you to limp or grind your way through an area. Most of those strategies aren't anywhere near good, let alone optimal, but they are functional.

There is a subtle yet important difference between a game lacking complexity/variety/depth, and game having those things but not requiring you to explore/use them. Most FF games--FFXIII included--fall into the latter category. However, most FF battle systems are pretty fun regardless of whether you're mashing your way through battles or applying deeper strategies. Either way--unless you're engaged in some sort of challenge play--the battles are likely to be rather quick, and even if they're repetitive there's a certain enjoyment in feeling powerful enough to roflstomp the enemy.

This is not really the case in FFXIII. Mashing your way through FFXIII involves the use of inefficient strategies, which leads to lengthy battles. During those lengthy battles, you're doing the same thing over and over. Long and repetitive = tedious and boring, and this recipe does very little to make you feel strong and powerful. By contrast, fighting efficiently allows you to end battles much faster while requiring you to make constant adjustments to your strategy and tactics. Quick and varied = fun and exciting, especially as this approach does (at least for me) inspire those feelings of power and being able to roflstomp the enemy. That's the intrinsic reward, and hopefully it'll work out for you as well.


I finished most of my battles in XIII fairly quickly and effectively, even when I just mashed my way through them. This is because of the aforementioned fact that there was very little variety between enemy formations and types within a single gameplay area, so I only had to worry about my tactics in the beginning of a new area.

But you are definitely correct in saying that I probably didn't discover many of the more sophisticated and intricate possibilities of the battle system. There were definitely some battles (especially bosses) that I could have cleared much more gracefully and with a lot higher score. I'll try to approach these situations differently during my new playthrough.
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#57Jedi_WraithPosted 7/13/2014 12:34:14 AMmessage detail
I'm sure FF13 drove at least half of the FF fanbase into Final Fantasy retirement.

The only two Final Fantasy games we got for PS3 were Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD and FF13-2,,, make that three because I actually like LR and still frequently play it.

I won't waste time on FF15, I'd rather fork over another $200 on SoulCalibur premium chests than buy another game from Square Enix.
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#58juzziebPosted 7/13/2014 12:50:51 PMmessage detail
I really like her, more for her design tbh I think it's the later end of 13-1 when they start to show that they didn't really know what to do with Lightning's character. Moreso when they butcher her character in the sequels. I think the game would have a pretty strong community if it wasn't labelled FF but because it is and it lacks many of the core gameplay elements that the series was known for it will always be hated. But under the title, there's a pretty good game in there, the first one at least.
#59CatMutoPosted 7/13/2014 3:40:30 PMmessage detail
it lacks many of the core gameplay elements that the series was known for it will always be hated


You've got story, characters, fun battle system, summons, generally boring villains and killing what counts as gods, it's totally full of core elements of Final Fantasy games. Plus, FF has always been a series that experiemented and changed things.
Just cause everyone makes a stink that XIII supposedly changed things, doesn't make us forget that the previous FFs were also different and changed things.

C-A
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#60astrophysPosted 7/13/2014 4:35:52 PMmessage detail
astrophys posted...
I might even one day go ahead and finish it anyways….

That said, Lightning Returns looks like a fun game, so I'm planning to pick it up shortly.


And on a whim, I just went ahead and finally finished the story mode of XIII-2. As expected, it remained extremely easy. But it was a nice sense of conclusion to have at least finished the game after the time I had put in previously prior to my hiatus from it.

That said, my new copy of Lightning Returns has arrived. I've already played the first hour [basically the initial tutorial and background conversations on the Ark]. I look forward to pressing ahead on it in the near future, even though I already know the core plot… but oh well, I got it because the gameplay looked fun, not because of the plot.