I hope they improve the bosses (spoilers for 1st game)

#11SBK91Posted 6/30/2013 5:24:48 PM(edited)
Granted, there's not really much else they could do to make "big" bosses interesting in the same way "smaller" ones are.

Which is weird, since DMC1 had the best big bosses in the genre, bar none.

Weapon choice may be a low bar, but it is meaningful all the same.

Weapon choice in Bayonetta is mostly arbitrary. Unlike other games where you chose a weapon for specific attacks, in Bayonetta the moveset for every weapon but Rodin is identical practically speaking (you get one or two unique strings, but they're mediocre/pointless). Outside Rodin, here's no reason to use anything other than Shuraba/Kilgore for the Virtues and Jubi, since they deal the most damage per hit. To say weapon choice is meaningful in Bayonetta to the same degree as NG, DMC, etc, is nonsensical.

There are action games that favor certain weapons for fights

A single weapon dominating a fight with all others being useless is uncommon. There's usually a handful of roughly equal and viable ways of approaching most encounters, which offer far greater variety than Bayonetta.

It's funny, becuase by some unlucky circumstance I've played every DMC except 3, so I can't comment on those.

Do it. DMC3 is da bes.

It functioned nigh-exactly like normal combat, except with somewhat farther reach to adapt to the larger targets.

It also homogenized the already similar weapons to a greater degree, as charge attacks became worthless and range irrelevant.

I thought it was a clever way to fight the big bosses without limiting the battle to completely scripted bits like God of War.

GoWII has better bosses than Bayonetta that offer a greater degree of freedom.

It's a gimmick, but it more compliments the combat than radically changing it.

It also looks extremely easy.

I've always seen Bayonetta's combat as very inspired by fighting games,

It's 3D Viewtiful Joe.

It's more about reflexes, taking advantage of your mobility, and learning effective techniques and enemy behaviors.

All of which is done better in DMC and NG.

If they want to improve Bayonetta's combat, the shared moveset needs to go. Badly. Just making the hand weapon completely dictate combat would work (as would a few weapons that take up hand and feet slots a la Rodin). Having every punch/kick and Wicked Weave for a given weapon do the same damage is unacceptable.
#12TwilightEchoesPosted 6/30/2013 7:52:33 PM(edited)
SBK91 posted...
Weapon choice in Bayonetta is mostly arbitrary. Unlike other games where you chose a weapon for specific attacks, in Bayonetta the moveset for every weapon but Rodin is identical practically speaking (you get one or two unique strings, but they're mediocre/pointless). Outside Rodin, here's no reason to use anything other than Shuraba/Kilgore for the Virtues and Jubi, since they deal the most damage per hit. To say weapon choice is meaningful in Bayonetta to the same degree as NG, DMC, etc, is nonsensical.


Their charge modifiers are all quite different. Kulshedra and Odette are great for crowd control, the latter is especially useful against the tougher enemies in how it can freeze them. Sai-Fung is great in normal combat due to its insane stun rates. Shubura is great for sweeping crowds of enemies and balanced close-combat. Bazillions will stun for a relatively decent period entire strings of enemies. Kilgore is very powerful and has an unparalelled combo-ender as far as damage. Onyx Roses have a great modifier that packs a quick punch. Durga is great for clearing crowds and is the fastest weapon in the game in lightning form and you can also do some interesting things with it in conjunction with Kulshedra and Odette.

You also get two sets of weapons and they can do a great job complimenting each other. I always have Kulshedra in one set for normal combat.

A single weapon dominating a fight with all others being useless is uncommon. There's usually a handful of roughly equal and viable ways of approaching most encounters, which offer far greater variety than Bayonetta.


In most of the well-known action games, sure. Vanilla NG3 gave you no choice of weapons. Half of Dante's DMC4 weapons were too slow or ineffective for many bosses (don't even get me started on how useless E&A are for everything and how slow Pandora was). DmC's angel weapons are trash for bosses. GoW had several ineffective weapons for bosses in no small part due to the unresponsive evasive and defensive moves, sometimes even the Blades of Chaos themselves.

It also homogenized the already similar weapons to a greater degree, as charge attacks became worthless and range irrelevant.


Not quite. Charges still do worthwhile damage outside of Scarborough Fair. And like I said, the range of attacks is only slightly extended above normal combat.

GoWII has better bosses than Bayonetta that offer a greater degree of freedom.


I'd disagree. I'm not the biggest fan of GoW's overall combat system. Kratos moves around like he has bricks dragging at his ankles and Bayonetta makes him look like an unresponsive 90's arcade rip-off. The series lately has gotten too far in the way of big pan-out sets that more confuse and limit the player than enhance the game. That isn't freedom to me.

It also looks extremely easy. ...All of which is done better in DMC and NG.


For being one of the first bosses in the game, I guess. A guy taunted Gommorah and its attacks became incredibly fast and wiped out nearly half his health in a single hit, which in the first game was equivilent of the harder difficulties.

Disagreed on the reflexes and mobility. Neither have the increidbly smooth and varied forms of mobility as Bayonetta. The higher difficulties having you darting around like crazy if you don't want to be hit. Bayonetta would dance circles around Dante and Ryu and they wouldn't last 10 seconds against these bosses. They don't have the dynamic movement Bayoentta has.
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#13SBK91Posted 6/30/2013 8:33:25 PM
Their charge modifiers are all quite different.

Which is one attack tied into every combo string.

The only weapons that are truly identical as far as combos are SF/OR/Bazillions/Lightning-Durga.

Shuraba, Pillowtalk and Sai Fung have the exact same moveset with one or two unique (mediocre) strings. Fire Durga, Kuldeshedra and Kilgore are the same except you can't go past three punches.

Kulshedra and Odette are great for crowd control

Shuraba and Kilgore have similar or better AoE and kill far faster.

the latter is especially useful against the tougher enemies in how it can freeze them.

Or kill them outright with the Kilgore exploit/Fire Bombs.

Sai-Fung is great in normal combat due to its insane stun rates.

And still had the same moveset, with worse damage and Wicked Weaves than Shuraba. Contrast to Nevan in DMC3 or the Flails in NG2. The former is a zero commitment crowd control/stunlock machine while the latter was lightning fast, delimbed well, and a strong aerial string with half a dozen ways to transition into.

Bazillions will stun for a relatively decent period entire strings of enemies.

Or kill them all with a Fire Bomb.

Kilgore is very powerful and has an unparalelled combo-ender as far as damage

And is only worth using on feet.

Onyx Roses

Deal less damage per hit with a worse Wicked Weave than Shuraba, less range, and no Fire Bomb/rocket antics to match Kilgore. Completely obsoleted.

Durga is...the fastest weapon in the game in lightning form

With worse DPS and reach than Shuraba.

You also get two sets of weapons

Same as DMC3. Which has more unique weapons.

I always have Kulshedra in one set for normal combat.

Which is only good for enemies you can already stunlock with normal attacks. It's good for the fliers, but otherwise there's no reason to use anything other than Shuraba/Durga/Kilgore prior to post game weapons.

Vanilla NG3 gave you no choice of weapons.

NG3 is an atrocity. NG1/B/S and NG2 allowed you to tackle most fights with any weapon viably, with good to great results (other than the Wooden Sword, which is an intentional challenge weapon).
#14SBK91Posted 6/30/2013 8:58:03 PM(edited)
God of War's combat has a clear bias half the time for the Blades of Chaos.

The Blades have been a mediocre to terrible choice outside GoW1. They're worthless in GoWII, GoS and CoO. The only reason they aren't trash in GoWIII is the high damage modifier, glitch hits and magic, and even then the subs are safer/more efficient in most cases (in a NUR, they are always a better option).

Charges still do worthwhile damage

Not hardly. The strongest charges, Shuraba and large Durga Fire bombs, deal 2000 damage, and take several seconds to charge. A Shuraba Wicked Weave deal 1200 a pop, can hit twice, get the normal hit (already up to 1450), Kilgore deals 400-1200, can summon double Weaves, hits multiple times, and can add on 900 damage rockets. Durga Fire Bombs can glitch (don't work on Temperantia at all). Not even Climax Pillowtalk is worth it.

And like I said, the range of attacks is only slightly extended above normal combat.

WWs automatically appear on the boss and Kilgore's fly forward.

Kratos moves around like he has bricks dragging at his ankles

Which has nothing to do than GoWII's bosses offer a larger variety of approaches and less 'stopping'.

The series lately has gotten too far in the way of big pan-out sets that more confuse and limit the player than enhance the game.

No doubt, but I'm referring specifically to 2 (the peak).

A guy taunted Gommorah

Which is intentionally making him harder.

Neither have the increidbly smooth and varied forms of mobility as Bayonetta.

Dante's movements are choppier, but more controllable and spammable (no limit on dodges). I frames with jumps are a pretty big deal. Sky Star provides a third, horizontal jump. Rolls are bad, but Dash helps make up for it. His 'Umbran Spear' doesn't require magic and can be done twice with DT in DMC4, as many times as you like with jump cancelling. Wall running and Vortex leaves you invulnerable for the duration, and his Witch Time (Quicksilver) lasts longer, recovers faster and gives I frames on activation, as well as making some of his highest DPS attacks (jump cancelled aerials) better. Jump RG is on par with MoKA safety wise for far greater power. Ice Age is piss weak but again leaves you invulnerable. DT quarters the damage you take (if not more) and gives regeneration.

Gameplay Ryu laughs at both of them defensively. I frames out the ass, an invincible low recovery spammable evade, blocking that cancels any ground attack, and can cancel a guard break into a evade back into a block.

Dante and Ryu and they wouldn't last 10 seconds against these bosses.

Given how Dante's high power moves are balanced around most enemies not being big enough or jump cancellable, and how utterly he wrecked DMC4's large, JC'able bosses, I doubt Bayonetta's would cause issues. Style switching with QS and DG would be rather interesting. Distorted Time Lagged Shadow Imaged JCed Hammers/Just Release/Real Impacts/Ultimate Tempest/Acid Rain anyone?

Far as Ryu goes, low health UF makes a mockery even of Climax Rodin, and NG2's strings >>> Bayonetta's.
#15TwilightEchoesPosted 7/2/2013 7:04:18 PM(edited)
SBK91 posted...
WWs automatically appear on the boss and Kilgore's fly forward.


Completely false. The WW's in serious mode, outside of where they normally extend in normal combat at the end of combos, stay next to Bayonetta. Only Kilgore has range like that.

Kulshedra and Odette were very useful. The quick enemies get forzen and Witch Time and Kulshedra can mow down crowds if you twirl the enemy. It also enhance your abilities to elevate and extend your range greatly for the oppostie set. Several generally did good damage against bosses (and complimented WW's), I can safely say having played through the game several times.

Which has nothing to do than GoWII's bosses offer a larger variety of approaches and less 'stopping'.


GoW2 has plenty of QTE's, many extended, that puncuate the fights. Exactly like Bayonetta. The QTE's are annoying in how they can kill occassionally you by missing one prompt (Bayonetta isn't innocent of this in a few instances either). That didn't make for enjoyable boss design for me. And fidelity is what I value most as far as any conceptions of gameplay freedom, which in those terms Bayoentta blows GoW out of the water.

Dante's movements are choppier, but more controllable and spammable (no limit on dodges). I frames with jumps are a pretty big deal. Sky Star provides a third, horizontal jump. Rolls are bad, but Dash helps make up for it. His 'Umbran Spear' doesn't require magic and can be done twice with DT in DMC4, as many times as you like with jump cancelling. Wall running and Vortex leaves you invulnerable for the duration, and his Witch Time (Quicksilver) lasts longer, recovers faster and gives I frames on activation, as well as making some of his highest DPS attacks (jump cancelled aerials) better. Jump RG is on par with MoKA safety wise for far greater power. Ice Age is piss weak but again leaves you invulnerable. DT quarters the damage you take (if not more) and gives regeneration.


He has nowhere near the fidelity of movement that Bayonetta has in any of his incarnations. Bayonetta can dodge, turn into multiple beast forms, use accessories that give her new defensive and modded abillites, has a number of counter manuevers, and can dart around the field quick as a bullet. All of which she can do at a moment's notice with no delay. Unless DMC3 increses his mobility vastly more than before, it's no contest. Bayonetta's fights are far faster and more frenetic.

Gameplay Ryu laughs at both of them defensively. I frames out the ass, an invincible low recovery spammable evade, blocking that cancels any ground attack, and can cancel a guard break into a evade back into a block.


Also the poor camera and spamming enemies (don't even get me started on NG2). One thing I'll give Bayonetta big props for is having one of the best cameras in the genre.

Given how Dante's high power moves are balanced around most enemies not being big enough or jump cancellable, and how utterly he wrecked DMC4's large, JC'able bosses, I doubt Bayonetta's would cause issues. Style switching with QS and DG would be rather interesting. Distorted Time Lagged Shadow Imaged JCed Hammers/Just Release/Real Impacts/Ultimate Tempest/Acid Rain anyone? ...NG2's strings >>> Bayonetta's.


Any Virtue or Jeanne or any boss would tear him to pieces. His mobility is not near enough to evade them, especially on higher difficulites.

It's too bad the enemy/boss design and AI across the board (explosive Kunai can sod off) combined with the awful camera had to turn the combat system into garbage. Not to mention obnxoius sections like the water-running combat. NG2 could have been so much more than it was.
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#16markfortinPosted 7/2/2013 7:02:33 PM
BladeDog911 posted...

And for gods sake, I hope bayonetta 2 doesn't have those cloned bosses. Why the hell did I have to fight temperantia 4 times? AND GOOD GOD NO MORE OF THOSE RAIL SHOOTING AND TURRET PARTS


That's something that I've only noticed lately in gaming; the "roaming" boss battle, or where you fight the same boss several times. While it doesn't make or break a game for me, I prefer to finish them off once and never see them again.
#17SBK91Posted 7/2/2013 9:26:44 PM
The WW's in serious mode, outside of where they normally extend in normal combat at the end of combos, stay next to Bayonetta.

Which still have ridiculous range.

Kulshedra and Odette were very useful.

Name a single situation outside the flyers Shuraba/Durga/Kilgore can't handle better.

The quick enemies get forzen and Witch Time and Kulshedra can mow down crowds if you twirl the enemy.

And in half the time you could have killed them with the Kilgore exploit or Fire Bombs.

It also enhance your abilities to elevate and extend your range greatly for the oppostie set.

Which is mostly pointless when it doesn't work on any of the threatening enemies, and Shuraba's WW has the same range, superior damage and is far safer.

generally did good damage against bosses

Crap damage if compared to Shuraba/Kilgore.

I can safely say having played through the game several times.

As have I. And they're inferior.

GoW2 has plenty of QTE's,

At the end of fights. Fewer interruptions mid-fight though.

The QTE's are annoying in how they can kill occassionally you by missing one prompt

Which kill you besides Zeus? Most deal minor damage. Bayonetta throws them out of nowhere for instant death.

That didn't make for enjoyable boss design for me.

Bayonetta's roller coaster punching bags are?

And fidelity is what I value most as far as any conceptions of gameplay freedom

What do you mean by fidelity? More strategic/unique approaches? GoW wins. Harder bosses? They're roughly the same under normal conditions, Rodin trumps vanilla GoW but under specialty conditions GoW slaughters Bayonetta. Numerically? GoW. Gimmick/setpiece fights? Bayonetta has more.

which in those terms Bayoentta blows GoW out of the water.

Examples?

He has nowhere near the fidelity of movement

There's that word again. How's Bayonetta more faithful to movements than Dante?

Bayonetta can dodge

I frame jumps and Trickster > Bayonetta's dodges.

turn into multiple beast forms,

One is a longer evade window, panther lets you run fast, crow is worthless for evasion.

use accessories that give her new defensive

RG is stronger than MoKA and QS gives I frames. DT doesn't allow No Damage bonuses like the butterflies, but is likely better for overall survivability.

modded abillites

Dante has Styles.

a number of counter maneuvers

Easier and safer than RG, but far less offensively powerful. RG favors the skillful.

can dart around the field quick as a bullet.

Where you think she picked up that trick?

All of which she can do at a moment's notice with no delay.

And Dante's a bit quicker, even outside DT.
#18SBK91Posted 7/2/2013 9:27:17 PM
Unless DMC3 increses his mobility vastly more than before,

It's smoother than 4, certainly. You just don't seem comfortable with what he's capable of.

Bayonetta's fights are far faster and more frenetic.

Surely, you jest. The execution barrier in DMC is well beyond Bayonetta. Mundus 2 laughs at Rodin. Jeanne doesn't compare to Vergil. A&R, the Chessboard, Abysses, any fight with normal+gimmick enemies, even Gigapede (ranking) and Nevan can get out of control/screw you to a harder degree than Bayonetta.

Also the poor camera and spamming enemies

What does that have to do with Ryu's defensive abilities?

Any Virtue or Jeanne or any boss would tear him to pieces.

Canonically? Perhaps. Gameplay wise? They're huge hitboxes with highly telegraphed attacks. Dante's all over this. QS or RG would invalidate Jeanne rather quickly. Hell, JCed Killer Bees might stunlock her.

His mobility is not near enough to evade them

An expertly played Dante is quicker than Bayonetta. RG negates attacks once they connect.

It's too bad the enemy/boss design and AI across the board (explosive Kunai can sod off) combined with the awful camera had to turn the combat system into garbage.

So Ryu has tougher foes, and that somehow makes him mechanically weaker?

Not to mention obnxoius sections like the water-running combat.

Agreed. Take out the bow/water sections and it's pretty well perfect.
#19TwilightEchoesPosted 7/3/2013 5:45:09 AM(edited)
SBK91 posted...
The WW's in serious mode, outside of where they normally extend in normal combat at the end of combos, stay next to Bayonetta.

Which still have ridiculous range.


It's not ridiculous at all, considering you still have to be at close range with them and easily within the range of all their every attack as much as a normal encounter. It's almost exactly like normal combat and Serious Mode exists to adapt to the larger enemy. It's all relative to the size and speed of the enemy and their animation and range, which make Serious Mode almost mandatory to be playable. People don't want to have to be hugging a behemoth's face with all that taken into account. It perfectly suits the scale and speed of the fights and compliments the fights without radically altering them.

I'm gonna have to call it quits with this debate. I can't be the only one here tired coming back to it at this point. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I definitely agree Bayonetta's boss fights could see improvments in areas, but I think they were mechanically fine and perfectly enjoyable. I have enjoyed experimenting with different weapons and attack methods on them, such as discovering the shield accessory is actually very effective at countering boss projectiles.
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#20SBK91Posted 7/3/2013 7:11:36 AM
It's not ridiculous at all

3-4 times normal range. That's ridiculous.

within the range of all their every attack

Which are trivially dodged.

It's all relative to the size and speed of the enemy...which make Serious Mode almost mandatory to be playable.

Virtues are slow as Hell. The reason they give you Climax mode is their bloated HP totals (balanced for Climax).

I think they were mechanically fine and perfectly enjoyable.

Compared to the genre's best, they're mostly mediocre.