Sony falls 2nd to Microsoft in ABI Research game console Competitive Assessment

#141Cosmic_DiabeticPosted 10/20/2013 7:10:49 PM
So I guess I'm the only one who's wondering what the hell ABI is?
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#142Cowboy082288Posted 10/20/2013 9:41:00 PM
TheOmacron posted...
Cowboy082288 posted...



Then how does it actively race against another player on any chosen track in real time? Answer: it takes that data, calculates AI patterns based on that data and then loads it up to an opponent that races you drivatar.

Again, the opponent is not racing some time trial shadow version of a race you already did.

But hey "ALL devs are lying, kojima means 10 years from now, MS is paying them to say this....." or whatever your next excuse is.


You are both right to an extent. The Drivatars are not static time trials. They are AI avatars that try to mimic the player they are based on. However, the "cloud" part is not all that impressive. The drivatar AI runs locally on the console. This is proven by the fact that drivatars work even if the console is disconnected from the internet. What you download from the cloud is just data that contains the parameter profile that the local AI uses to drive like a particular person.

A non cloud based approach could have simply included 100 of these driving profiles on the game disk. I doubt any more profiles than that would be needed because no one could tell the difference if more were added. The benefit of the cloud approach is that the game can automatically get the driving profile for people in your friends list to simulate a race against them. So in that respect, the cloud really is just a data storage location of driving profiles.

However to be fair, the cloud is used to create a profile based on the player's driving data. This is an asynchronous activity and there is no reason why a console couldn't do this calculation too. The worst case scenario in such a situation would be that those calculations would be done while the game was idling like during menu access. So it might be possible that the cloud allows drivatars to be updated slightly faster since that can be done while the race is in progress.That's great for the cloud but no one would notice an AI update being delayed by 5 minutes.


We are not both right to an extent....

If you're new to Drivatar, none of the computer racers in Forza 5 are generic AI archetypes - they're all modelled on the behaviour of individual players, whose traits are brought into your session depending on your own racing tactics. The system is designed to learn from your playstyle and evolve alongside you.

"With a system like this, we can race together, even when we're not together," said Mathis. "And we don't have to do all the same things, like [Turn 10 boss Dan Greenawalt] pointed out, because we learn about your tendencies across different tracks - we understand how certain spots on one track relate to a spot on another track.
"We can build a profile of you that can go anywhere. So I can race him on the tracks I like even though he hasn't been there, and I get to see the cars he's using. So if he goes and gets a cool new livery, we can talk about it next time we touch base, see each other face to face."


and also:

"When you've got a learning neural network, more computing power is nothing but helpful. Because what you're able to do is process a lot more information, and you don't have to do it in realtime on the box. And that frees up more of the box to be doing graphics or audio or other computational areas.

"So we can now make our AI instead of just being 20%, 10% of the box's capability, we can make it 600% of the box's capability," he went on. "Put it in the cloud and free up that 10% or 20% to make the graphics better - on a box that's already more powerful than we worked on before."


It's nice you have a theory on how it works, but this is what actual devs have said. I have never said how I think it works, just what professionals say.
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#143SoulTrapperPosted 10/21/2013 1:46:24 AM
DesperateMonkey posted...
You cannot "update" AI without processing actions into performance patterns. How many times would you like to fail at this subject? Please tell me how an update would work without recalculating the AI? On second thought, I fear what kind of BS might come out of your mouth next. "Well you see, the cloud just watches the video and then stores that in its brain and uses that image of how it happened for other people!"


There is no need for any recalculations. You simply select the profile closest to what the player achieved (by comparing the time at checkpoints throughout the track).
They said themselves that everything is based off of pre-rendered AIs.

The biggest issue here is that none of it has actually been shown, so there isn't a shred of evidence for it.

We already know Microsoft lied about the cloud before and believing a guy who claims they can do 600% more AI now is rather hard.
Even the xbox magazine guy himself addressed that part as hyperbole.

Also, its hilarious you say people claim it can perform miracles and you find one poster who said it can do stuff beyond Cloud processing... Thats the MIRCALE you are talking about? We already have stuff beyond cloud processing such as outside uses like TV and Smartmatch...


No, you're right, people didn't claim it in this topic.

You are pure comedic gold. A true disgrace to PS4 fanboys everywhere. The PS4 is a great console. They don't need your desperation. In fact, they desperately don't want it.


See, that's the problem: you know you hardly have any arguments, so you need to padd them up with brainless insults.
You know I'm no ps4 fanboy, yet you try to discredit my claims by saying that I am.
That is desperation.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming
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PSN: El_Coon
#144SoulTrapperPosted 10/21/2013 1:56:05 AM
Ch3wy posted...

Notice how the bolded word wasn't there before? That's a new introduction to your argument. That wasn't actually there in your response, and with the removal of it you'll see that you were wrong.

But rather than admit that, you'd rather change things around and add new, key details. That's dishonest.


It wasn't there, because the AI calculations in an MMO are pretty much non-existant.
It's basically repeating the same patterns over and over.

Bringing that up in a conversation about the Microsoft cloud is strange to say the least.
It's comparing driving your bike to the local butcher shop to going to the moon in a racket.

Furthermore, it only adds to the evidence that cloud computing won't be possible for xbox one games.

Was I wrong to claim it was only data storage and not acknowledging the very basic AI calculations? Yes.
Were you wrong claiming I denied it was AI? Yes.

Is the cloud going to add anything beyond data storage and dedicated servers? Highly unlikely.


Cowboy082288 posted...

Then how does it actively race against another player on any chosen track in real time? Answer: it takes that data, calculates AI patterns based on that data and then loads it up to an opponent that races you drivatar.

Again, the opponent is not racing some time trial shadow version of a race you already did.

But hey "ALL devs are lying, kojima means 10 years from now, MS is paying them to say this....." or whatever your next excuse is.


Because it will load the profile.
It doesn't need to do any calculations in the cloud, this can (and will) all be done locally.

And now you need to resort to lies, just like the other two guys.

I never said devs are lying, I said they're exaggerating (which the writer of the forza article even acknowledges) and that their claims aren't actually saying anything.

Kojima saying the future is cloud gaming, doesn't mean it is possible at this time.

As the only in depth look by an independent source proves:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming
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PSN: El_Coon
#145TheOmacronPosted 10/21/2013 4:15:31 AM
Cowboy082288 posted...

If you're new to Drivatar, none of the computer racers in Forza 5 are generic AI archetypes - they're all modelled on the behaviour of individual players, whose traits are brought into your session depending on your own racing tactics. The system is designed to learn from your playstyle and evolve alongside you.

"With a system like this, we can race together, even when we're not together," said Mathis. "And we don't have to do all the same things, like [Turn 10 boss Dan Greenawalt] pointed out, because we learn about your tendencies across different tracks - we understand how certain spots on one track relate to a spot on another track.
"We can build a profile of you that can go anywhere. So I can race him on the tracks I like even though he hasn't been there, and I get to see the cars he's using. So if he goes and gets a cool new livery, we can talk about it next time we touch base, see each other face to face."


and also:

"When you've got a learning neural network, more computing power is nothing but helpful. Because what you're able to do is process a lot more information, and you don't have to do it in realtime on the box. And that frees up more of the box to be doing graphics or audio or other computational areas.

"So we can now make our AI instead of just being 20%, 10% of the box's capability, we can make it 600% of the box's capability," he went on. "Put it in the cloud and free up that 10% or 20% to make the graphics better - on a box that's already more powerful than we worked on before."


It's nice you have a theory on how it works, but this is what actual devs have said. I have never said how I think it works, just what professionals say.


You are giving too much credit to Drivatars. Drivatars don't make the underlying AI any better or worse. Please note that the Drivatar tech has been in Forza and promoted from the beginning. The only unique thing about them now is the automatic tailoring of the AI to your friends. The actual AI does not use the cloud. That is proved by the fact that Forza can be played offline.

From GameInformer...
Do you have to be connected to the Internet to play Forza 5? The answer to that question is no -- with a slight catch. The game must log in to Xbox Live at least once, but when it does Forza 5 caches car and race data necessary for offline play. So, after that initial connection, you will be able to play Forza offline.


Given this observation, the "600% of the box's capability" quote just sounds silly. The only benefit that the cloud brings is that as for the training "you don't have to do it in realtime on the box". Well that ignores the fact that you never had to do it realtime. You could save the gaming data and do that processing anytime you wanted.

I also made the observation that there really aren't that many different driving styles. I realize that Turn 10 is trying to make a big deal out of dynamically creating drivatars. That is their design choice, but like I said, I seriously doubt that anyone could tell the difference between a custom created drivatar and one that was selected from a preset of 100. I pulled that number out of thin air but with games coming on Blu-Ray disks now, that number could be 500, or 1000 if need be.

The Drivatar + Cloud is not there to make the game better, but for marketing. It is the same thing that Sony tried to do with the Sixaxis controller when they forced unnecessary gyro and accelerometer controls into games.
#146Ch3wyPosted 10/21/2013 5:30:17 AM
SoulTrapper posted...


It wasn't there, because the AI calculations in an MMO are pretty much non-existant.
It's basically repeating the same patterns over and over.

Bringing that up in a conversation about the Microsoft cloud is strange to say the least.
It's comparing driving your bike to the local butcher shop to going to the moon in a racket.

Furthermore, it only adds to the evidence that cloud computing won't be possible for xbox one games.

Was I wrong to claim it was only data storage and not acknowledging the very basic AI calculations? Yes.
Were you wrong claiming I denied it was AI? Yes.


I don't understand you - you ask for proof, something that's already in practice and not theory, but when given it you say that it's for some reason strange to bring up. What do you expect as proof? Do you want a time traveler to show us what MS's cloud is going to do?

The AI calculations aren't pretty much non-existent by the way. They might be small but there are hundreds and thousands going on at once.
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#147ILikesCheesePosted 10/21/2013 5:46:52 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
#148DesperateMonkeyPosted 10/21/2013 6:15:47 AM(edited)

There is no need for any recalculations. You simply select the profile closest to what the player achieved (by comparing the time at checkpoints throughout the track).
They said themselves that everything is based off of pre-rendered AIs.


Just when you think a guy can't sink any lower. Now he actually makes up stuff just to try and fight for his argument. When did turn 10 say this? In fact, Cowboy just quoted them saying that its a LEARNING neural network.

@Omacron

So you are also making up stuff based on how easy or hard you think Forza's AIs are and declaring they are not special even though you've never used it?

Then you are trying to make the silly argument that SoulTrapper isn't wrong even though he said there is no processing, by creating an imaginary argument where you are an authority on AI creation along with the made up assumption that you already know exactly how the Drivatars are? Apparently he is not wrong even though the AI IS being processed in the system dynamically but apparently he is right because you say its useless? Basically, he is wrong but he is right for no reason? Then you give us made up methods of how Forza 5 does their AI with absolutely no sources to back them up except that you "know"?

Sounds like a bad alt...
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#149Cowboy082288Posted 10/21/2013 7:36:12 AM(edited)
TheOmacron posted...


You are giving too much credit to Drivatars. Drivatars don't make the underlying AI any better or worse. Please note that the Drivatar tech has been in Forza and promoted from the beginning. The only unique thing about them now is the automatic tailoring of the AI to your friends. The actual AI does not use the cloud. That is proved by the fact that Forza can be played offline.

From GameInformer...
Do you have to be connected to the Internet to play Forza 5? The answer to that question is no -- with a slight catch. The game must log in to Xbox Live at least once, but when it does Forza 5 caches car and race data necessary for offline play. So, after that initial connection, you will be able to play Forza offline.


Given this observation, the "600% of the box's capability" quote just sounds silly. The only benefit that the cloud brings is that as for the training "you don't have to do it in realtime on the box". Well that ignores the fact that you never had to do it realtime. You could save the gaming data and do that processing anytime you wanted.

I also made the observation that there really aren't that many different driving styles. I realize that Turn 10 is trying to make a big deal out of dynamically creating drivatars. That is their design choice, but like I said, I seriously doubt that anyone could tell the difference between a custom created drivatar and one that was selected from a preset of 100. I pulled that number out of thin air but with games coming on Blu-Ray disks now, that number could be 500, or 1000 if need be.

The Drivatar + Cloud is not there to make the game better, but for marketing. It is the same thing that Sony tried to do with the Sixaxis controller when they forced unnecessary gyro and accelerometer controls into games.


I'm sure like any game with online features, those features won't be available if you play offline......

At any rate this is getting old, your argument has now boiled down to same thing soultrapper did. I say "Here is links/quotes of devs saying they offload AI computing to the cloud", then you say "no their lying, and this is how I think the game works".

I say "well that's not how the devs say it works" so you say "doesn't matter I'm sticking with how I think it works"

And round and round we go. Personally I'm going with what actual developers say over what random person on GF says.
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PSN/XBL/Steam - cowboyoni
#150VauntXPosted 10/21/2013 8:59:47 AM
I just read this thread and I can summarise it thusly:

Guy 1: Rabble rabble rabble, I'm right, you're wrong, rabble rabble rabble
Guy 2: Rabble rabble rabble, no I'm right and you're wrong, rabble rabble rabble

Repeat ad infinitum.

Seriously, the pair of you need to grow the **** up.