Why is the XB1 getting cheated again?

#41AceAndJunpeiPosted 4/16/2014 10:30:36 AM
violentdissmay posted...
Remember when people bought games for the fun of it without worrying about fps and resolutions?


Nope.

Even back in the Genesis/SNES days people went to war over graphics and sound on multiplats, I.e. Mortal Kombat.

Why do people whitewash history like this? Were they just not born yet?
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#42MRL3G3NDPosted 4/16/2014 10:39:32 AM
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/408068/xbox-one-does-not-target-the-highest-end-graphics-says-ms-engineer/
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#43SoulTrapperPosted 4/16/2014 11:35:05 AM(edited)
This guy on another forum had a pretty good explanation of why the xbox games are running at lower resolutions:

The main barrier that is breakable is ESRAM design.
All 3D hardware except PS1 and nintendo DS need at least three "bitmaps" stored on the memory (they're actually quite a LOT similar to a windows bitmap, except no header).
Those are the backbuffer, front buffer and Zbuffer.

The backbuffer is where the GPU draw the current frame, frontbuffer is a copy of the last backbuffer that is feed to the circuitry that sends the picture to the screen, and the zbuffer is a map of the depth of every pixel, that is used to cheaply sort the triangles and allow geometry intersection etc..

In the case of the Xbone, at least the backbuffer and the Zbuffer must be stored on the ESRAM because the regular memory is just too slow to make that role effectively, and well, a 1080p HDR backbuffer requires 16 MB of memory, plus the 8 used by the Z-buffer and suddently you only have 8MB of fast memory for all the rendering purposes, and this is quite short when you're using stuff like 4096x4096 textures and millions of polygons.

The easiest cop out out of this is of course setting a lower resolution to leave more ESRAM space for the game, but you also can do stuff like rendering half of the screen then the other half, or not using HDR, or going zbufferless etc...

Meanwhile on PS4, no juggling around is needed as all the memory is the fast memory.

They're the same memory format, though GDDR is designed for very high bandwidth at the expense of latency, whilst DDR3 aims for low latency at the expense for high bandwidth.

The thing is, DDR3 is not good for storing graphics assets and game data, which works best off of GDDR memory because of the high bandwidth.

To compensate for that, MIcrosoft used eSRAM which offers the very high bandwidth that GDDR5 is known for. However, there's only 32MB of it, which simply isn't enough and no amount of polished SDK, better drivers, and more lower-level access courtesy of Microsoft's SDK is going to fix the fundamental fact that physically, in terms of what is on the chip--isn't enough to match what the PS4 has.

The Xbox One even with its weaker CPU may have been able to compete with the ps4 and render games at 1080p IF the APU had 48 or even 64MB of eSRAM.

But it doesn't and it never will; which will be its Achilles heel as the generation lifespan increases.


There's one other MAJOR problem with the XB1.

The Data Move Engines that MS incorporated into the APU that sit between the DDR3 and the eSRAM.

Whenever data needs to be transferred from DDR3 to eSRAM, the data has to utilize these move engines, which eats up 8GB/s of bandwidth.

So your DDR3 in the XB1 which was sitting at 68GB/s, now suddenly is doing 60GB/s and the 172GB/s you were getting with the eSRAM is now getting 164GB/s.

Which is basically creating latency during data transfers between two memory pools, and when you're rendering stuff with a lot of physics and player input, that latency is an absolute nightmare.

PS4 doesn't have these latency issues because there's only ONE memory pool, not two and furthermore, the PS4 doesn't need to rely on additional circuitry to move data around.

The whole data move engines are brilliant from a set-top-box console that can decrpyt loads of media and interface with cable perspective + kinect camera.

But it's a colossal waste for gaming.


TL;DR:
Easiest way to get around the ESRAM issues, is lowering the resolution.
#44ThatLaoGuyPosted 4/16/2014 10:52:11 AM
I think soultrapper just made some xboners cry with that one. Crushing dreams with some truth lol
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#45Dann981Posted 4/16/2014 10:59:32 AM
I tried to explain the physical impossibility of Xbox One ever being as graphically powerful as a ps4 because of esram earlier they don't care about specs. TITANFALL GUYS SERIOUSLY
that's basically it
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#46aszsithPosted 4/16/2014 11:02:16 AM
Dann981 posted...
BSerenity posted...
Laylow12 posted...
skermac posted...
Should MS add a more powerful processor in future units to match the PS4?


YES! It's their only option because most people want the best version possible for every game and that's going to be the PS4 version.

.


Sure if they wish to piss off the current XBO owners...


There's no way to make everyone happy. People holding out to buy an Xbox for a slim or cheaper or stronger model. Then the people who already paid full price. You take out kinect original buyers will be mad. Take out the disc drive everyone's mad. Add more CPU and originals are mad. Best we can do is wait it out and hope they make the right decision. Best case scenario would be a digital only slim or a kindectless model that would add firmware to previous owners to choose if they wanna still use it or not.


It isn't about making people happy. Microsoft can't release an XBOne2.0 with significantly more powerful hardware. If they did, the newer produced games wouldn't be compatible with the original hardware and/or developers wouldn't take advantage of the new tech so their games would work on the older hardware. Either way, it would fragment the user base and be a wasted "improvement".

Like it or not, the hardware specs are here to stay for the generation.
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#47The_DOAMPosted 4/16/2014 11:14:40 AM
Dann981 posted...
BSerenity posted...
Laylow12 posted...
skermac posted...
Should MS add a more powerful processor in future units to match the PS4?


YES! It's their only option because most people want the best version possible for every game and that's going to be the PS4 version.

.


Sure if they wish to piss off the current XBO owners...


There's no way to make everyone happy. People holding out to buy an Xbox for a slim or cheaper or stronger model. Then the people who already paid full price. You take out kinect original buyers will be mad. Take out the disc drive everyone's mad. Add more CPU and originals are mad. Best we can do is wait it out and hope they make the right decision. Best case scenario would be a digital only slim or a kindectless model that would add firmware to previous owners to choose if they wanna still use it or not.


History
Nintendo 64
Expansion Slot

Much like Kinect only games their were Expansion Slot only games as well plus certain games like Episode 1 pod racer got a nice graphical upgrade when the device was plugged into your N64. Should've been the wave of the future that Expansion slot making consoles just like PC's upgradable changeable maleable but then the format wars came. We are currently in the first gen since the Playstation arrival without a new format and now talk of an expansion slot device has renewed itself this time for the ONE.
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#48The_DOAMPosted 4/16/2014 11:22:42 AM
ExempliGratia posted...
Laylow12 posted...
The XBOX ONE simply isn't the game machine that the PS4 is. It's intended to be a showcase for KINECT 2.0 with a dash of game playing on the side.

.


Opinions are not facts.


Pretty sure it's fact and also pretty sure the head of Microsoft agrees

http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2014/04/04/phil-spencer-admits-microsoft-made-wrong-decisions-xbox-one-pushes-gaming-first-refocus/

See their primary strategy wasn't games it was TV and stuff but mainly TV as according to their reveal and E3 showings. They say their going to focus on games now however so I suppose if you want you could say the Xbox was a gaming console since the 4th but I don't see any evidence any action has been taken all their latest news about the Xbox one has been about the console itself and not games at all.

Xbox ONE your one source for all entertainment(That;s called a PC) will no longer be their primary focus as they attempt to make their system about gaming. odd isn't it...

So yes he was correct in his statement yet they admit it as fact and will try to rectify it(LoL)
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Ignorance is Bliss...
#49Kovifan27Posted 4/16/2014 12:25:42 PM
SoulTrapper posted...


TL;DR:
Easiest way to get around the ESRAM issues, is lowering the resolution.


The whole post is spot on. MS needs to stop with the power of the cloud and DX12. Xbox One was released with a custom mono driver which allows coding to the metal. How much is DX12 going to help? And really if it does help my guess is you won't see any improvements until at least 2016.

MS
ďSince E3, an example is that weíve dropped in what we internally call our mono driver. Itís our graphics driver that really is 100 percent optimised for the Xbox One hardware. You start with the base [DirectX] driver, and then you take out all parts that donít look like Xbox One and you add in everything that really optimises that experience. Almost all of our content partners have really picked it up now, and I think itís made a really nice improvement.Ē


Move on to the other strengths of the system w/the TV integration and the Kinect. Don't keep feeding into the resolution war.
#50I_VTEC_Power_IPosted 4/16/2014 12:42:24 PM
AceAndJunpei posted...
violentdissmay posted...
Remember when people bought games for the fun of it without worrying about fps and resolutions?


Nope.

Even back in the Genesis/SNES days people went to war over graphics and sound on multiplats, I.e. Mortal Kombat.

Why do people whitewash history like this? Were they just not born yet?


I'd say it's due to us being children back then and not having access to the open forums the internet provides.

None of my friends argued over video games back when Sega was battling Nintendo. At least nothing more than "that game sucks". Just too young. Plus without something as accessible as the internet around, you had to have all your discussions in person.

Nowadays any 12 year old with an opinion can pop online and mouth off.
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