So this is it for Mega Man

#81GreatTroySenseiPosted 1/6/2013 9:59:43 AM
n00bsaib0t posted...
Okay, I've found something more frustrating than the bad designs in Mega Man 2 and 3, people like you that can't comprehend basic English. I never once said something was so hard that I died 9 times. I said screwing up once, then having to intentionally die 9 times to refill weapon energy because you are stuck if you don't intentionally die. What is good design about forcing someone who's hauling ass through the game because he's been playing Mega Man 3 since he was 7 and can beat it in 45 minutes on a good day to die intentionally 8 times because he got hit off of a platform trying to collect energy for Rush Jet because he's human and mistakes like that happen, so now he has no Rush Jet and a huge ass pit to cross thats impossible with out it in the Needle Man doc bot stage? What about that is good design?

PS- Calling him "Rockman" doesn't make you sound cool, OG, or better than anyone else. You're speaking English, not Japanese.


Mistakes happen = you made mistakes. Mistakes don't leap off your controller, onto the screen and make themselves.

And I wasn't calling him "Rockman" - I was saying the game, Rockman 2. It's more difficult than Megaman 2. I didn't want to have to type out "Megaman 2 on difficult mode" so thanks for being Polly Particular and negating that by making me explain myself.

The gripes you have with the game are largely due to coding inexperience in the generation they're from. Coding the game to remember how much weapon energy you have, or even adding in something like weapon tanks literally hadn't been invented yet. Again, this is an era where Contra was fairly standard game difficulty.

We'll agree to disagree. The older games aren't perfect, but they're challenging and fun. They're also widely acknowledged to be the better of the classic series titles - for reasons nobody has mentioned, like music and boss design. The bosses and tracks from 2 and 3 are leaps and bounds above any designs we got until the X series.

That much is recognized across the fanbase. I'm sorry that so many of you guys are butthurt about Legends 3 - what happened was messed up, but I don't really care. Legends series were subpar games.

That doesn't mean that in Capcom rage mode, you need to go and piss on the classics.
---
These are like, third dimension glasses, you know? They don't really work, though because I feel like I'm still seeing stuff in whatever dimension we live in.
#82n00bsaib0tPosted 1/6/2013 7:42:50 PM
From: GreatTroySensei | #401
Mistakes happen = you made mistakes. Mistakes don't leap off your controller, onto the screen and make themselves.

Doesn't change the fact that having to die 9 times because I was doing good until I screwed up once is poor design.

And I wasn't calling him "Rockman" - I was saying the game, Rockman 2. It's more difficult than Megaman 2. I didn't want to have to type out "Megaman 2 on difficult mode" so thanks for being Polly Particular and negating that by making me explain myself.

Rockman 2 isn't more difficult than Mega Man 2, you actually just pointed this out in your own post. And you're on a Mega Man forum, we all know that "Normal" on Mega Man 2 is actually easy mode and the "Difficult" mode is the original difficulty. If you say you've beaten Mega Man 2, we assume its on Normal.

We'll agree to disagree. The older games aren't perfect, but they're challenging and fun. They're also widely acknowledged to be the better of the classic series titles - for reasons nobody has mentioned, like music and boss design. The bosses and tracks from 2 and 3 are leaps and bounds above any designs we got until the X series.

3 is one of my favorite games ever. I never said I don't like them, I said that the mandatory Rush Jet portion of Mega Man 3 was poorly designed. Don't act like I don't like any of these games because I see faults with things like being allowed to start the Wily stages in MM1 without the Magnet Beam (which you simply cannot beat Wily 1 without, you have to game over and go get the Magnet Beam), needing full Crash Bomb to beat the wall boss in MM2, or needing full Rush Jet to do the pit in the Needle Man doc bot stage in MM3. Still great games, but damn. The MM1 problem would only happen on your first play through. The MM2 problem will happen every time you mistime pressing B. The MM3 problem will happen any time you might get knocked off a platform trying to get the weapon energy capsules for Rush Jet. Not things that ruin games, but still bad design.

That much is recognized across the fanbase. I'm sorry that so many of you guys are butthurt about Legends 3 - what happened was messed up, but I don't really care. Legends series were subpar games.

You should try reading around here, because I don't give a flying f*** about Legends and never have. I simply recognize game faults when I see them, unlike you.

That doesn't mean that in Capcom rage mode, you need to go and piss on the classics.

They aren't immune to criticism just because they are classics. Bad design is bad design, not matter how good the rest of the game is.
---
PSN/XBL- Nifterific
SSF4AE: Balrog, Evil Ryu | UMvC3: C.Viper/Morrigan/Hulk | MK9: Noob Saibot, Cyber Sub-Zero | SFxTK: Ryu/Guile
#83Jak7733Posted 1/7/2013 11:20:40 PM
The magnet beam issue shouldn't ever happen, actually. It is impossible to get to Wily 1 without having at least seen the magnet beam lying there waiting to be picked up.

I never said I was bad at Mega Man 2 or that I have trouble with it. I'm quite good at it actually. This doesn't prevent me from pointing out objectively bad design about it. You have no way to know you need every crash bomb for Wily 4's boss. Dying to the mecha dragon causes you to have to use item 1 to get up that ladder again, and it's quite easy to die to the mecha dragon, what with the sudden auto scrolling that's slower than your normal pace by about half when you're already hopping to single tile platforms, contact being a OHKO, and the easy ability to be knocked back off the platforms if your not standing on the top (where it can make physical contact). Sure you can farm energy if you screw up and as an added bonus the walls you destroyed in Wily 4 stay destroyed until you game over, which makes it harder to make the boss impossible to beat the next time you go in. That doesn't make it okay. I can slightly forgive the mecha dragon just as much as I can the needle man doc robot stage's rush jet system because you aren't totally screwed and forced to kill yourself because of a mistake (generally the mistake will be you died and the punishment is farming energy) . However, if you run out of crash bomb energy in Wily 4's boss or run out of bubble lead against the alien, you ARE screwed and forced to die (with the alien being worse as there's no way to farm energy so you have to game over). This is bad design, there should always be a way to defeat your enemy even if its not with the advantage. Take that one wily boss in Mega Man 8 that you have to use the mega ball on. It drops boxes that contain weapon energy so you can never screw yourself in that fight from running out of weapon energy. That's good design. An alternative method to giving weapon energy is to allow it to be defeated with the Mega Buster. That said, Mega Man 3 probably has the worst flaw but its more of an over sight than an intentional design choice. This is in one of the doc robot stages after defeating the first doc robot, once you leave the arena you are faced with a wall that Mega Man barely cannot reach and if you have no Rush Coil or Rush Jet energy then your only option is to reset the game.
---
What the hell is a Firioniel? Is that the cable that fits an iFrion? - ponosmcgee on Dissidia Final Fantasy
#84n00bsaib0tPosted 1/8/2013 6:40:52 AM
From: Jak7733 | #403
I can slightly forgive the mecha dragon just as much as I can the needle man doc robot stage's rush jet system because you aren't totally screwed and forced to kill yourself because of a mistake (generally the mistake will be you died and the punishment is farming energy) .

Actually, if you picked up the energy crossing it the first time even if you farm Rush Jet to full you don't have enough to make it across. That is why those are there, one full Rush Jet doesn't get the job done.
---
PSN/XBL- Nifterific
SSF4AE: Balrog, Evil Ryu | UMvC3: C.Viper/Morrigan/Hulk | MK9: Noob Saibot, Cyber Sub-Zero | SFxTK: Ryu/Guile
#85Jak7733Posted 1/8/2013 8:12:25 PM
You can make it across with a single full bar of Rush Jet if you hop the whole way and/or use the speed slide, but the latter is a glitch and the former I'm sure is another oversight, so point taken.
---
What the hell is a Firioniel? Is that the cable that fits an iFrion? - ponosmcgee on Dissidia Final Fantasy
#86wufei8706Posted 1/9/2013 12:23:13 AM
So you don't like 2 lol. What's wrong with 9 and 10??
9 has better gameplay but I like the music in 10 more >_>
---
http://i45.tinypic.com/4sl82r.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Uu5mm.png
#87Jak7733Posted 1/9/2013 8:02:22 PM
I never said I don't like 2, I just wanted to point out that its got more design flaws than any other game in the series, since everyone wants to compare every Mega Man game to this imaginary standard that Mega Man 2 set. Mega Man 9 & 10 are excellent. I have no complaints with them.
---
What the hell is a Firioniel? Is that the cable that fits an iFrion? - ponosmcgee on Dissidia Final Fantasy
#88KamisamanoOtakuPosted 1/13/2013 2:29:32 PM
For Mega Man 3, there is of course the "super jump" glitch if you have a second controller to activate it (at least on the NES version) to get by that pit without Rush!

...

Yeah, not a real solution to the design issue.

Classic Mega Man games are best when using Items to get through a Stage is both fun and effective. Wily 4 has barriers to destroy with Crash Bombs, making it quite easy for a player that didn't receive warning ahead of time not to enter the boss room with the Crash Bombs full. The Rush Jet is amazingly useful, and especially being smart enough not to collect all the Energy power ups in case you die on your first crossing is quite advanced strategy. The Bubble Lead was great for finding hidden floors (did it actually kill any ground level enemies? Been a while since I played it...), and again it was nice having a weapon with such usefulness.

The questionable design element is that (especially in a non-arcade game) players were forced to extreme measures to recover. Just refilling a player's Weapons/Items each time they died would avoid complicated save states be programmed in and solve the issue... or of course reserving such sections for alternate paths/bonus play, which would have probably been best (though I do prefer health and weapon energy refilling upon death).

Neither Mega Man 2 or 3 for the NES were without flaws. I don't much care for overpowered weapons, either; Normal "difficulty" was enough of a crutch for Mega Man 2. Overpowered weapons unfortunately make it easy for less observant players to notice good weapons... are good. I didn't get to play Mega Man 2 before Mega Man 3, so the Shadow Blade was so awesome. While still "good", I can see why some think it disappointing: only five directions instead of eight, limited range (I think; again, been a while), and not as easy on the Power Meter.

If they really want to create a scalable difficulty with modern Mega Man games, I'd love to see specific aspects of the game simply be adjustable; some like amount of platforms or spikes would be harder to program for, but things like Power-Up drops, damage from enemies, and damage to enemies shouldn't be that bad to turn into adjustable options.

Anyone still reading this... I also learned to love Network Transmission. It was horrible my first play through; when I broke down and got some maps from GameFAQs for my second time through, it became a lot of fun. You really have to learn how the "system" works, then abuse the heck out of it. This doesn't make it a great game; it is pretty much a broken system once you know how to exploit it, but fun in an overpowered Metal Blades kind of way. ;)
---
I like pie.
#89Jak7733Posted 1/14/2013 9:54:07 PM
^You seem to get exactly where I'm coming from.
---
What the hell is a Firioniel? Is that the cable that fits an iFrion? - ponosmcgee on Dissidia Final Fantasy