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What about a game with Dark, Fighting, and Psychic starters?

#41elite_marksmanPosted 2/11/2013 12:23:59 PM
KingTumbleweed posted...
elite_marksman posted...
duranmanX posted...
Fire/Water/Grass is only simple to us vets because we are used to it. I'm sure before Red/Blue came out we would be somewhat confused of how it works. Seriously though, its a rock-paper-scissors idea. not hard to understand at all.

Rock/Fighting/Flying
Poison/Ground/Grass
Fire/Rock/Steel

If someone is new to the game, they can be taught these as easily as we know ours. Example, there are people in Japan who know Japanese, I myself have a hard time learning the language but for them it's perfectly natural. They however, might have a hard time learning English, which I have done a great job of doing.

If there was a new system, people would be able to learn it just as well as we learned ours.


Really? Really?

Most people can intuitively figure out that water would obviously beat fire, fire obviously burns grass, and to continue with the pattern, grass would beat water.

Let's take a look at the other triangles:

Rock/Fighting/Flying

-Flying beats Fighting because...uh...fighting types use fists, and flying types are flying so they can't hit them that easily? I guess? But then you have other physical attacks that can hit them just fine, so that's out the window.
-Fighting beats rock because...Strong people can punch rocks?
-Rock beats flying because...that old phrase "kill two birds with one stone"?

Yeah. Not much intuition there.

Poison/Ground/Grass

-Grass beats Ground because grass absorbs nutrients out of the ground?
-Ground beats Poison because....?
-Poison beats Grass because....?

Even less in this triangle.

Fire/Rock/Steel

-Steel beats Rock because steel is stronger than rock, I guess
-Rock beats Fire because Rock isn't really flammable?
-Fire beats Steel because Fire melts Steel. But Steel is harder than Rock, so why can't Fire melt Rock? Heck, everything else in the game is just as meltable, so why isn't Fire super-effective against everything?

And, of course, the ever-popular...

Dark/Fighting/Psychic

-Psychic beats Fighting because "mind over matter". Okay, simple enough
-Fighting beats Dark because...Dark is evil, and Fighting is good? I guess?
-Dark beats Psychic because the Psychic type was overpowered as hell in Gen 1, and Dark was one of the new types introduced that would resist it and balance it out.


So yeah. Could they be explained? Sure. Would they make much sense? Not really. Fire/Water/Grass doesn't even have to be taught. Sure, they do teach it just in case, but they just make logical sense.


Clearly biased towards Dark/Fighting/Psychic.

If I said it like this...

-Psychic beats Fighting because...smart people beat stupid people who fight with their fists?
-Fighting beats Dark because...fists can overcome the power of darkness?
-Dark beats Psychic because...nope, no real reason.

Your wording clearly made the Dark/Psychic/Fighting stand out and sound less stupid.


I was actually trying to make it sound kinda stupid. I'm not biased towards it at all. One could argue that Fighting could just as easily beat Psychic because fighting types are physically strong and Psychic would be physically weak.

And Dark beating Psychic makes no sense, which I demonstrated by saying the only reason it does beat Psychic was because Psychic was overpowered, they needed a type to resist it, and it just so happened to be called "Dark".
#42Ambi3ntT3chPosted 2/11/2013 12:27:04 PM
elite_marksman posted...
KingTumbleweed posted...
elite_marksman posted...
duranmanX posted...
Fire/Water/Grass is only simple to us vets because we are used to it. I'm sure before Red/Blue came out we would be somewhat confused of how it works. Seriously though, its a rock-paper-scissors idea. not hard to understand at all.

Rock/Fighting/Flying
Poison/Ground/Grass
Fire/Rock/Steel

If someone is new to the game, they can be taught these as easily as we know ours. Example, there are people in Japan who know Japanese, I myself have a hard time learning the language but for them it's perfectly natural. They however, might have a hard time learning English, which I have done a great job of doing.

If there was a new system, people would be able to learn it just as well as we learned ours.


Really? Really?

Most people can intuitively figure out that water would obviously beat fire, fire obviously burns grass, and to continue with the pattern, grass would beat water.

Let's take a look at the other triangles:

Rock/Fighting/Flying

-Flying beats Fighting because...uh...fighting types use fists, and flying types are flying so they can't hit them that easily? I guess? But then you have other physical attacks that can hit them just fine, so that's out the window.
-Fighting beats rock because...Strong people can punch rocks?
-Rock beats flying because...that old phrase "kill two birds with one stone"?

Yeah. Not much intuition there.

Poison/Ground/Grass

-Grass beats Ground because grass absorbs nutrients out of the ground?
-Ground beats Poison because....?
-Poison beats Grass because....?

Even less in this triangle.

Fire/Rock/Steel

-Steel beats Rock because steel is stronger than rock, I guess
-Rock beats Fire because Rock isn't really flammable?
-Fire beats Steel because Fire melts Steel. But Steel is harder than Rock, so why can't Fire melt Rock? Heck, everything else in the game is just as meltable, so why isn't Fire super-effective against everything?

And, of course, the ever-popular...

Dark/Fighting/Psychic

-Psychic beats Fighting because "mind over matter". Okay, simple enough
-Fighting beats Dark because...Dark is evil, and Fighting is good? I guess?
-Dark beats Psychic because the Psychic type was overpowered as hell in Gen 1, and Dark was one of the new types introduced that would resist it and balance it out.


So yeah. Could they be explained? Sure. Would they make much sense? Not really. Fire/Water/Grass doesn't even have to be taught. Sure, they do teach it just in case, but they just make logical sense.


Clearly biased towards Dark/Fighting/Psychic.

If I said it like this...

-Psychic beats Fighting because...smart people beat stupid people who fight with their fists?
-Fighting beats Dark because...fists can overcome the power of darkness?
-Dark beats Psychic because...nope, no real reason.

Your wording clearly made the Dark/Psychic/Fighting stand out and sound less stupid.


I was actually trying to make it sound kinda stupid. I'm not biased towards it at all. One could argue that Fighting could just as easily beat Psychic because fighting types are physically strong and Psychic would be physically weak.

And Dark beating Psychic makes no sense, which I demonstrated by saying the only reason it does beat Psychic was because Psychic was overpowered, they needed a type to resist it, and it just so happened to be called "Dark".


NO! We do this all the time, Psychics weakness are based on common fears.
#43KeeperOfShadowsPosted 2/11/2013 12:54:08 PM
elite_marksman posted...
Really? Really?

Most people can intuitively figure out that water would obviously beat fire, fire obviously burns grass, and to continue with the pattern, grass would beat water.


And alot of good that intuition does, seeing as by the time your starter has access to a STAB move, you'll already have confronted several other types of pokemon. It doesn't matter if the player understands a type matchup from the beginning since they'll eventually learn them all while playing the game. Hell, in Yellow version you start off with a Pikachu, but you still had to take on Brock for your first gym badge. That forced you to think things through early in the game, didn't it? All this "new players wouldn't understand D/P/F" is a rather poor rationalization for not using different type triangles(not to mention insulting gamers' intelligence(believe it or not, even children can learn!).

Alright I'm done.
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#44Marcx629Posted 2/11/2013 1:12:19 PM(edited)
I was thinking they could do something like a trainer school. Maybe, in some far away region, for a kid to be able to become a Pokemon trainer they have to catch their own first Pokemon.

It'd be a safari zone kind of thing that has unevolved Pokemon that spread across multiple types. Each of them would be chosen to have a polar opposite that is super effective against them. After you catch yours, you show the professor who's like "ohhh excellent find [name here]" then your rival busts in right after you with whatever Pokemon is the opposite of yours.


I like this idea since it gives more freedom in choosing your starter and it opens up several types that you wont see until later on in the game.







Okay, this is probably a dumb idea. I just want a Riolu starter.
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#45jayman7Posted 2/11/2013 1:12:47 PM
I only read the first few posts and I know it is worth stating that the starters were never designed to be balanced, but around the player always losing, which is the antithesis of balance, and that Dark's immunity to Psychic means that they player would lose, which is the point. Or I could repeat the dialogue of:

Charizard: Ha! I laugh at Grass! Isn't it so awesome having a double-resistance to Grass, when every other starter in the series has only a single resistance to the starter they beat? Oh, yeah, double resistance to Grass! Go ahead, Grass-types! Hit me with your best shot!

Swampert: Shut up, Charizard. >:(

Or I could point to Torterra and Empoleon, who are in fact not resistant to Water and Fire, respectively. Or I could point out that anyone who uses only a starter loaded up on only STAB moves is going to run into the brick wall of something with Flash Fire or Water Absorb or Sap Sipper as it stands anyway. Or I could point out that pure Flying Pokemon are really rare - it took five generations to get one and it's legendary - so I'm not seeing that in a starter any time soon to those people who want to hype Rock/Flying/Fighting - and Normal/Flying is not resistant to Fighting and breaks up the imaginary "perfect balance" that doesn't actually exist in starters anyway. Or I could point out that these starter types are all hypothetical and we already know that this gen's starters are the usual boring Grass/Fire/Water all over again. Or that many of us want them to appear as dualtypes, which immediately cancels all arguments about immunity - and that Rock/Flying/Fighting interferes with the Grass/Fire/Water triangle, which Psychic/Dark/Fighting does not do.

I dunno. Which argument works best for you?
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#46IngSlayerPosted 2/11/2013 1:15:02 PM
This is not new. It has been discussed before.
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