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If GF isn't going to make Charizard/Gyardos Dragon type, give them Dragon STAB

#41VerdikaPosted 2/27/2013 8:18:22 PM
Remove Salamence's wings and it looks like a horny toad lizard with a smooth back or a salamander with taller legs. Take away Dragonite's wings and it looks like Barney. Take away Altaria's wings and it looks like...well the same as it does WITH it's wings, a peacock. Most other Dragon types either don't look like dragons anyways (Reshiram), look like eastern dragons (Rayquaza), or would look like dragons even without their wings (Druggigon).

What does Charizard look like if you remove his wings? A DRAGON! I'm sorry, but he just doesn't look like a lizard. His mouth, his body structure, his horned head, his arms, everything on him screams dragon, regardless of wings or not.

I think he wasn't a dragon because back in Gen 1, they only wanted there to be one dragon type, that being Dragonite's line. But either way, Charizard is clearly dragon-based. Now they're not going to ret-con him now, and I don't think a starter should be a dragon type anyways (although I might say the same for steel and look at Empoleon, but whatever), but it's clear that they are doing everything that they can to try and make Charizard into as much of a dragon as possible without actually making him a dragon. His numerous dragon attacks and appearance of dragon based teams are proof of that.

Sorry, but Charizard IS a dragon. He's just an unofficial one.

That being said, giving him STAB for dragon moves would be stupid. How would they do it? Give them a new, second Dream World ability? You can't just say "Hey, guess what!? We're giving Charizard STAB on his dragon moves regardless of the fact that he's not a dragon type for absolutely no reason at all! Why? BECAUSE WE CAN!!!"
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#42wahaha911Posted 2/27/2013 8:26:08 PM
stop complaining about draco meteor on gyrados anyways it means nothing
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#43LexifoxPosted 2/27/2013 9:14:41 PM
iKhanic posted...
True, but there are some elements that all dragons have. In one sense, the kind that are based on lizards, have a tapered snout, often a long neck, a distinct two segmented body, four clawed limbs, often wings, and a long tail. Aside from wings, these are traits lizards have as well. Here is an example. Take any pokemon that is strictly based on a dragon (meaning no garchomp (hammerhead shark), flygon(antlion), or altaria (???)) and has four limbs, then take its wings away and make is quadrapedal. Chances are you will get something that resembles a lizard.

The other kind, which Rayquaza and Gyrados are based on more resemble snakes, but retain the tapered snout


You're focusing more on the European dragon and neglecting the more serpentine dragons of Asian folklore.

What the hell does it mean to be "Based on dragons, but not dragons". If something looks like a dragon, its a dragon. Unless you are talking about type, in which case Charizard and Gyarados are obviously not dragon type.


As I said, is Octillery a cannon? Is Samurott a literal samurai? Are Luvdisc and Alomomola literal hearts?
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"Murder of the living is tragic, but murder of the idea is unforgivable." - Janus, speaker of the synod
#44LexifoxPosted 2/27/2013 9:14:48 PM
Verdika posted...
Remove Salamence's wings and it looks like a horny toad lizard with a smooth back or a salamander with taller legs. Take away Dragonite's wings and it looks like Barney. Take away Altaria's wings and it looks like...well the same as it does WITH it's wings, a peacock. Most other Dragon types either don't look like dragons anyways (Reshiram), look like eastern dragons (Rayquaza), or would look like dragons even without their wings (Druggigon).


ITT: "I am not familiar with the differing cultural depictions of dragons". Dragonite has countless elements of the Japanese dragon in it, from appearance, gentle demeanor, association with the sea, etc.

What does Charizard look like if you remove his wings? A DRAGON! I'm sorry, but he just doesn't look like a lizard. His mouth, his body structure, his horned head, his arms, everything on him screams dragon, regardless of wings or not.


So basically any large reptile is a dragon to you?

I think he wasn't a dragon because back in Gen 1, they only wanted there to be one dragon type, that being Dragonite's line.


State your evidence. Also, they had a load of Pokemon that didn't make it into the Gen 1 games. Would it have been that hard to just not put in the Charizard line and wait for another game or something?

But either way, Charizard is clearly dragon-based. Now they're not going to ret-con him now, and I don't think a starter should be a dragon type anyways (although I might say the same for steel and look at Empoleon, but whatever), but it's clear that they are doing everything that they can to try and make Charizard into as much of a dragon as possible without actually making him a dragon. His numerous dragon attacks and appearance of dragon based teams are proof of that.


There's no reason that "Steel" is or should be a special or significant typing.
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"Murder of the living is tragic, but murder of the idea is unforgivable." - Janus, speaker of the synod
#45GiftedACIIIPosted 2/27/2013 9:19:16 PM
iKhanic posted...
Shadow_StarWolf posted...
Why should they be given Dragon STAB moves?

From: iKhanic | Posted: 2/27/2013 5:04:19 PM | #030

What the hell does it mean to be "Based on dragons, but not dragons". If something looks like a dragon, its a dragon. Unless you are talking about type, in which case Charizard and Gyarados are obviously not dragon type.


Charizard is a fire lizard and Gyarados is a "dragon that lost its dragon status because it is a dick". And I've yet to see a Dragon type Pokemon that is not Dragon. Altaria is based on the Trystatis, a dragon-bird.


You just made my point. They are dragons based on what their basis is. Charizard is clearly designed to look like a European dragon (you are blind if you can't see that), so its a dragon, just like Altaria is designed to look like a dragon-bird and Salamence is designed to look like a European dragon.

The thing about Gyarados is I haven't heard this second half of the story outside of GameFAQs so a source would be nice. But even if its accurate, Gyarados is still a dragon is features but not one in name.


If you know a tiny bit of asian culture you'd know the Gyarados link. In fact, just visualize the dragons used for chinese festivals and Chinese New Year. Hopefully you get the connection. Also bulbapedia and wikipedia if you really need to read it somewhere
#46LexifoxPosted 2/27/2013 9:20:50 PM
GiftedACIII posted...
iKhanic posted...
Shadow_StarWolf posted...
Why should they be given Dragon STAB moves?

From: iKhanic | Posted: 2/27/2013 5:04:19 PM | #030

What the hell does it mean to be "Based on dragons, but not dragons". If something looks like a dragon, its a dragon. Unless you are talking about type, in which case Charizard and Gyarados are obviously not dragon type.


Charizard is a fire lizard and Gyarados is a "dragon that lost its dragon status because it is a dick". And I've yet to see a Dragon type Pokemon that is not Dragon. Altaria is based on the Trystatis, a dragon-bird.


You just made my point. They are dragons based on what their basis is. Charizard is clearly designed to look like a European dragon (you are blind if you can't see that), so its a dragon, just like Altaria is designed to look like a dragon-bird and Salamence is designed to look like a European dragon.

The thing about Gyarados is I haven't heard this second half of the story outside of GameFAQs so a source would be nice. But even if its accurate, Gyarados is still a dragon is features but not one in name.


If you know a tiny bit of asian culture you'd know the Gyarados link. In fact, just visualize the dragons used for chinese festivals and Chinese New Year. Hopefully you get the connection. Also bulbapedia and wikipedia if you really need to read it somewhere


The koi/carp is also used for windsocks, namely "koinobori". This further explains Gyarados being a serpentine flying Pokemon.
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"Murder of the living is tragic, but murder of the idea is unforgivable." - Janus, speaker of the synod
#47Ultimate_Nova_XPosted 2/27/2013 9:30:52 PM
I'm not sure how Lexifox thinks his theory automatically dispproves everyone else.

Heck, even gamefreak indirectly admitted that it was based on Chinese mythology about a fish leaping over a dragon's gate.
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#48GiftedACIIIPosted 2/27/2013 9:31:07 PM
Lexifox posted...
GiftedACIII posted...
iKhanic posted...
Shadow_StarWolf posted...
Why should they be given Dragon STAB moves?

From: iKhanic | Posted: 2/27/2013 5:04:19 PM | #030

What the hell does it mean to be "Based on dragons, but not dragons". If something looks like a dragon, its a dragon. Unless you are talking about type, in which case Charizard and Gyarados are obviously not dragon type.


Charizard is a fire lizard and Gyarados is a "dragon that lost its dragon status because it is a dick". And I've yet to see a Dragon type Pokemon that is not Dragon. Altaria is based on the Trystatis, a dragon-bird.


You just made my point. They are dragons based on what their basis is. Charizard is clearly designed to look like a European dragon (you are blind if you can't see that), so its a dragon, just like Altaria is designed to look like a dragon-bird and Salamence is designed to look like a European dragon.

The thing about Gyarados is I haven't heard this second half of the story outside of GameFAQs so a source would be nice. But even if its accurate, Gyarados is still a dragon is features but not one in name.


If you know a tiny bit of asian culture you'd know the Gyarados link. In fact, just visualize the dragons used for chinese festivals and Chinese New Year. Hopefully you get the connection. Also bulbapedia and wikipedia if you really need to read it somewhere


The koi/carp is also used for windsocks, namely "koinobori". This further explains Gyarados being a serpentine flying Pokemon.


Exactly
#49MagikarpRulesPosted 2/27/2013 9:31:28 PM
Look, guys, I get your arguments. However, I still think that Charizard has a pretty European draconic appearance. More so than Flygon (based on an insect) and Kingdra (based on a seahorse); considering an antlion is similar to, but not the same as, a dragonfly, Flygon shouldn't be Dragon type, yet it is; and Kingdra is based in a leaf dragon (I think that's the name of the species), which is ultimately a fish, and it still gets the Dragon type. Game Freak is (most probably) not going to make Charizard an official Dragon type, but one thing I don't think can be denied is that its design draws heavily from European dragons.
#50LexifoxPosted 2/27/2013 9:33:47 PM
Ultimate_Nova_X posted...
I'm not sure how Lexifox thinks his theory automatically dispproves everyone else.

Heck, even gamefreak indirectly admitted that it was based on Chinese mythology about a fish leaping over a dragon's gate.


She, and no.

Magikarp's evolution is based on a Chinese story about a carp that swam up a waterfall in order to become a dragon, a fable of sorts that is meant to be a metaphor for working hard and overcoming adversity to achieve greatness. There is not a literal gate for dragons.
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"Murder of the living is tragic, but murder of the idea is unforgivable." - Janus, speaker of the synod