This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

What is so competitive about a controlled environment?

#71DarkKirby2500Posted 3/7/2013 3:08:25 PM(edited)
TheoryGent posted...
I don't battle competitively, I've tried to start in gen 4 but due to college, never had the time. However from what I understand that Smogon or Gamefaq or whoever creates these rules, their intention is to prevent broken strategies found in the game they love so that everyone can have fun at a competitive level. [By broken I miss an OP strategy that is impossible to counter or has limited counters which take away the fun of the game]

This isn't a new concept, lots of popular competitive card and video games are altering certain aspects of their design in order to prevent "broken" strategies. MMO's constantly buff or nuff classes that have a distinct disadvantage or advantage, Yu-gi-oh has limited the use of or flat-out forbidden certain cards and decks in tournaments because of how imbalanced they are. Face it, when designing a video game to be as wide-spread and competitive as Pokemon, ppl will find strategies that work too well because they kill the "fun" competitive players feel in the game.

Example, we enter into a battle and your strategy is to decrease my accuracy and increase your evasion so that your "un-hit-able". To counter, I increase my accuracy and decrease your evasion so you are "hit-able". So now instead battling with the our clashing souls, both of us keep spamming buff moves until we run out of pp and then repeat for 5 more times until one of us quits from boredom. [example based off GiftedAC^^]

TL;DR: Point being this "controlled environment" exist to promote a fun way to play the game competitively.


There is a huge difference between the card limitations and bans in Yu-Gi-Oh (or other card games) and Pokemon and strategy bans in Pokemon. The Yu-Gi-Oh rules are set by the MANUFACTURER, and they have a real, business related reason for putting in the effort to do so. Why is this? To make money, they need people to keep buying cards. But all too often, they make cards that are very/too powerful, and these cards become very valuable (monetarily) and dominant competitively, and dominate the game. But if the card is THAT good, it means making any other cards that do something similar worthless, and nobody will bother buying new cards, so they ban the card so they can make cards that do similar things have worth and have people continue buying them. Raigeki, for example.

MMOs and Starcraft have a vested monetary interest in keeping the game somewhat balanced.

Nintendo doesn't lose any money by leaving the Pokemon game competitively broken and unfair as a majority of people would buy the game even knowing this (and many others buy it not knowing). They have shown little to no interest in making the game fair competitively, as I said before, not doing so is clearly not effecting sales.

Now, in the fighting game community, characters and glitch bans happen, as very often, for multiple reasons, game developers do not patch the game when something broken is discovered, but even then there are often disagreements on it. Bans are considered a last resort for if something REALLY makes the game unplayable. Famously, a group similar to Smogon banned Meta Knight in Smash Bros. Brawl tournaments, but the decision was made by American players for American tournaments, and during an international tournament, Japan said they wouldn't come to the U.S. since they still used Meta Knight in their tournaments (and practiced with and against him a lot) and they never agreed to the ban. So they lifted the ban before the international tournament. If people were not going to respect their authority, there was no reason to exist, so they disbanded.
---
1. The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. 2. They're all complacent sheeple.
<==]-<(-_o)>-[==>
#72DarkKirby2500Posted 3/7/2013 3:20:11 PM
I want to add, Nintendo is actually quite infamous for almost never patching games, competitive or otherwise. Even after they advertised the 3DS as patchable, when a game breaking bug was found that ruined online for Mario Kart 7 as everyone would constantly select the course with the glitch and abuse it, Nintendo refused to patch the game, making the excuse that patching the course would be unfair for people who got good times in time trial mode with the glitch. It wasn't until some 7 months later they patched the game, and between that time, online was nearly unplayable (unless you think playing on the same course all the time and dice rolling for mushrooms was a blast).

How much effort would it take for them to patch the glitch to remove the teleport on the Mario Kart course, very little. They own the game AND the console platform. Yet, they resisted heavily, made excuses as to why they will never do it, and even when they did, it took around 7 months.
---
1. The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. 2. They're all complacent sheeple.
<==]-<(-_o)>-[==>
#73GiftedACIIIPosted 3/7/2013 5:23:58 PM
EnzanChaud posted...
GiftedACIII posted...
EnzanChaud posted...
I'm familar with Moody's tests.

Basically, though, most of the time it's "I can control my accuracy, that's fair, but it's absolutely unfair of my opponent to control mine. they gotta stand still." In Chess, you're not always going to hit the Queen. You have to think of a way to box in the queen. in a fighting game, dodging and double jumps are musts to master if you want to get out of any situation. Pokemon has luck? Does it really? Is there a way around this? Is this move really that worth it? Do all of my moves have to hit all the time? These are the questions people SHOULD be asking themselves, but they just got tired thinking about it and said "f--- it". You know the minute they introduce a Never miss for every type is the minute you people stop complaining.

As for not being competitive, think what you want.


When you can make it so that your opponent's attack only hits 30% of the time it doesn't become strategy anymore. I mean with a defensive Pokemon all you have to do is boost up your defenses and evasion, use toxic, and stall. The only way to beat it is if you start boosting your evasion yourself which overcentralizes everything and it makes it so that almost everything is pp stalling, just not fun at all. You're in the minority in this one, the unsensible one. I love it when the incorrect minority considers others unsensible.

Also Gamefaqs is the one that came up with the evasion clause


You can flap your wrists all you want, All you've shown me is that you have a very childish way of telling others with what you think is right. There are other ways to beat certain Pokemon, it's called taking a chance and reading your opponents moves, something you people don't seem to want to do.

I don't see the majority of GameFAQS going after me.


Lol, no more arguments from you, this just shows that you lose and don't have the ability to have logical debates. GG troll. Oh, and that contradicts what you said earlier, you said this game is pure intelligence but now you say "take a chance". You don't even have to predict your opponent's moves, its obvious they're just gonna boost their evasion but that has such few specific counters that it forces you to use specific Pokemon making it completely boring and much worse than a controlled environment where you can use tons of viable Pokemon. You don't have any idea what you're talking about
#74scraadinPosted 3/7/2013 9:06:47 PM
There are more counters for evasion than there are for entry hazards.
---
"There is no overkill. There is only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."
The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates-schlockmercenary
#75GiftedACIIIPosted 3/7/2013 9:14:58 PM
scraadin posted...
There are more counters for evasion than there are for entry hazards.


No counterevasion move is reliable besides Aura Sphere. And then when the other team doesn't have evasion and would rather just boost attacks you're down
#76scraadinPosted 3/7/2013 9:40:45 PM
You kidding? There are quite a few that do straight damage. There are others like Defog that neutralize it. There are moves like Lock-On that provide a temporary reprieve. There are abilities like No Guard and Compoundeyes that block or nullify it.

Entry hazards only have one counter, and it's a garbage move no one would touch if an entire mechanic hadn't centralized around it.
---
"There is no overkill. There is only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."
The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates-schlockmercenary
#77GiftedACIIIPosted 3/8/2013 6:57:51 AM
scraadin posted...
You kidding? There are quite a few that do straight damage. There are others like Defog that neutralize it. There are moves like Lock-On that provide a temporary reprieve. There are abilities like No Guard and Compoundeyes that block or nullify it.

Entry hazards only have one counter, and it's a garbage move no one would touch if an entire mechanic hadn't centralized around it.


The straight up damage ones are way too weak to much good espescially if they start boosting up their defenses as well. So people are gonna waste a moveslot entirely to remove evasion? If there was a move that raised your accuracy besides hone claws and coil maybe, stuff like lock-on are normally useless as they can just switch right out. Only 2 Pokemon has No Guard. Compoundeyes don't do anything to the opponent's evasion and are mostly found on bad pokes.

Entry hazards encourage prediction to limit your switching. That's intelligence. Not trying to hope for the best in evasion. (clear smog and stuff like roar can actually miss
#78scraadinPosted 3/8/2013 6:35:53 PM
They may encourage intelligent prediction, to a point. They also make some Pokemon and even entire types almost unusable, unless you have the otherwise useless Rapid Spin. The only attack with worse damage in the entire game is round 1 Fury Cutter.

The variety of evasion counters may not be as good, but its sure as heck better than the variety of entry hazard counters. Poison Spikes and Spikes are handled kind of intelligently. Poison Spikes have a decent counter in poison types. Spikes take three whole turns to fully set up. It's your own fault if they get that thick. Stealth Rock, on the other handle?

Yeah, you can justify that one when there's more than one counter and there are counters that aren't crap.
---
"There is no overkill. There is only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."
The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates-schlockmercenary
#79sonicfanaticjtbPosted 3/8/2013 6:53:05 PM
scraadin posted...
They may encourage intelligent prediction, to a point. They also make some Pokemon and even entire types almost unusable, unless you have the otherwise useless Rapid Spin. The only attack with worse damage in the entire game is round 1 Fury Cutter.

The variety of evasion counters may not be as good, but its sure as heck better than the variety of entry hazard counters. Poison Spikes and Spikes are handled kind of intelligently. Poison Spikes have a decent counter in poison types. Spikes take three whole turns to fully set up. It's your own fault if they get that thick. Stealth Rock, on the other handle?

Yeah, you can justify that one when there's more than one counter and there are counters that aren't crap.


You could say that gamefreak kinda tried to balance Stealth Rock out by severely limiting Stealth Rock's distribution in Black/White and removing it as a TM. Didn't work out that well in the end since we could still use old 'mons with the move <_<.

If I recall, Stealth Rock was nominated numerous times in 4th gen UU. So, yeah. even competitive battlers seem to agree that Stealth Rock is generally annoying, lol. To bad it's also kinda sorta fun to use.
---
Krystal and Phoenix Wright for Smash 4!
... Please, Sakurai?